Side camera experimenting

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kamkar1

kamkar1

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#61
Yes no problem getting rid of a old battery in the right manner here, though by the need to air commercials telling people not to put batteries in the regular trash it seem like many people are just lazy A holes.



Translation if google cant do that:

What the **** is this.

Whats the matter ?

Whats this ?

Its just a little battery.

A battery ??? in the trash !

I thought we was having a good time, and then you go behind my back and put batteries in the trash.

Are you ****ing with my drinking water ? ARE YOU ****ING WITH MY DRINKING WATER CLAES !!

Narrator : batteries in the trash ruin the good vibes, and are ****ing with the ground water we Danes use for drinking ( we Daned incinerated our regular trash to make heat so not good if there are batteries in it. )
 

DashOto

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#62
:dead::dead::dead:
Totally expected to see a giant battery, not a simple AA battery but I guess batteries are batteries.

Thanks for the translation since getting YouTube to auto-translate to English was nowhere near correct.
At one point it mentions Skype :banghead:
 
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kamkar1

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#63
As you can hear the "F" word have found its way into Danish, and its not getting replaced with beep sounds.
I got to record the sounds coming off a Danish kindergarten some day, im pretty sure the F word get used a lot there too, as Forrest Gump say its F this and F that a lot here.
 

Nigel

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#64
Drone battery packs bear virtually no relationship with how we use power banks in our cars, or phones or dash cams or flashlights or smoking vaporizers or any other popular modern gadget that people use and store in millions of homes every single day. Power packs used in drones are regularly pushed to their max during use, both with repeated cycles of fast charging and hard discharging. At the same time, perhaps more than in any other usage scenario they are subjected to constant vibrations and strong shocks which tends to dramatically increase the likelihood of an internal short circuit and eventual thermal runaway.
The big difference is that my dashcam consumes between 2 and 3 Watts and the powerbank heats up by nearly 1°C, my Phantom drone consumes 0.5 Kilowatts and the battery heats up by around 40°C. The batteries have similar capacity and weight, but obviously the drone battery is having to work considerably harder, a Kilowatt is a thousand times the power of a Watt! Very unusual for a Phantom 4 battery to catch fire though, or even puff up, the odd unusual event is normally preceded by the drone landing in sea water, they normally survive a lake water landing!
 

Nigel

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#66
Not sure about the Phantom 4 but some simple searching turns up numerous hits for drone battery thermal runways, fires and explosions.
Apart from the oldest models, the Phantoms use intelligent batteries, with the charge control inside the battery so that it is impossible to overcharge, over discharge, over heat etc. They will fly the drone back home before running out of power and they monitor individual cells and will land and power off if any show voltage issues or imbalance. If they decide they are in a dangerous condition then they will refuse to power on.

Smoke and fire is unheard of, even in a crash, except following a landing in salty sea water!

Cheaper drones use external battery chargers and then you can easily cause problems through user error.
 

Dashmellow

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#67
Apart from the oldest models, the Phantoms use intelligent batteries, with the charge control inside the battery so that it is impossible to overcharge, over discharge, over heat etc. They will fly the drone back home before running out of power and they monitor individual cells and will land and power off if any show voltage issues or imbalance. If they decide they are in a dangerous condition then they will refuse to power on.

Smoke and fire is unheard of, even in a crash, except following a landing in salty sea water!

Cheaper drones use external battery chargers and then you can easily cause problems through user error.
Well FWIW, the exploding drone battery in @c4rc4m's video was from a Phantom.

earlier.jpg
 

Dashmellow

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#69
That is what it says, but I've never heard of a Phantom battery working at 5 volts, Phantom 4 batteries are high voltage lithium and work at 17.4 volts.
Perhaps the tested voltage has to do with the reported damage? Nevertheless, it is a Phantom battery - "Smoke and fire is unheard of, even in a crash".
 

Dashmellow

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#70
the Phantoms use intelligent batteries, with the charge control inside the battery so that it is impossible to overcharge, over discharge, over heat etc.
BTW, every protected 18650 and 14500 lithium-ion battery I own has these same protection features. Such features are commonplace nowadays.

18650.jpg

protections.png
 
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Nigel

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#71
Perhaps the tested voltage has to do with the reported damage? Nevertheless, it is a Phantom battery - "Smoke and fire is unheard of, even in a crash".
Or was it an advert for Lipo Safe Bags, designed to get the highest number of clicks?
 

c4rc4m

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#73
https://metro.co.uk/2018/03/19/teenager-18-killed-smartphone-explosion-talking-7400361/[/QUOTE]
BTW, every protected 18650 and 14500 lithium-ion battery I own has these same protection features. Such features are commonplace nowadays.

View attachment 40670

View attachment 40671
Those protections only protect against external influences. One of the prime ways for these batteries to fail is due to metal particle impurities within the electrolyte during manufacturing. This can lead to those metal particles eventually short circuiting the cell internally. The risk is small but there.

As for diverting the side cam thread Dashmallow, around 2 pages ago, I apologised to KamKar for the slight diversion, and quite clearly said, there are risks that people should be aware of and people should take precautions, but it's also individual choice as to the risk. It's quite obvious that battery power banks storing huge amounts of charge and that sit in cars exposed to direct sun are far more at risk than small batteries internal to a camera. The diversion could have stopped there.....
 

Nigel

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#74
...It's quite obvious that battery power banks storing huge amounts of charge and that sit in cars exposed to direct sun are far more at risk than small batteries internal to a camera. The diversion could have stopped there.....
I don't think that is obvious and searching for news of car fires caused by powerbanks gives surprisingly few results, fires/smoke on aeroplanes seems far more common, often because of physical damage and possibly because of air pressure changes.

Of course if a powerbank does catch fire the results may be more serious than a battery based dashcam catching fire, but any fire in a car is bad news and likely to spread.

I can only recall one dashcam fire thread on this forum, I suspect powerbank fires would be about as common except that we haven't all been using them so far.
There have been a few melted dashcams and plenty of puffed up or otherwise non-functional batteries, but even when sitting in full sun there is a lack of evidence for lipos that power dashcams being dangerous, either for internal batteries or external powerbanks. And with powerbanks you have the advantage of being able to mount them out of the sun and away from the hot roof, and away from where they might suffer physical damage, and you even have the option of placing them in a "fireproof" lipo charging bag which will reduce the chance of a fire spreading.
 

Dashmellow

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#75
Those protections only protect against external influences. One of the prime ways for these batteries to fail is due to metal particle impurities within the electrolyte during manufacturing. This can lead to those metal particles eventually short circuiting the cell internally. The risk is small but there.

As for diverting the side cam thread Dashmallow, around 2 pages ago, I apologised to KamKar for the slight diversion, and quite clearly said, there are risks that people should be aware of and people should take precautions, but it's also individual choice as to the risk. It's quite obvious that battery power banks storing huge amounts of charge and that sit in cars exposed to direct sun are far more at risk than small batteries internal to a camera. The diversion could have stopped there.....[/QUOTE]

"Slight diversion"??! o_O So you post at least five times to this thread with alarmist statements and sensationalist videos about a subject that belongs over in the dedicated battery forum and then because you add a little disclaimer apology about the inappropriate posts you think that should be the end of the discussion? This is an internet forum my friend and it would be naive to believe that if you post numerous provocative remarks that you won't elicit a response from someone.

Speaking of eliciting responses you apparently and unsurprisingly have no idea about what actually causes lithium battery failures. The notion that the primary factor causing lithium battery fires is "metal particle impurities within the electrolyte during manufacturing" is inaccurate. While foreign particles in the electrolyte can indeed be an issue, today's advanced manufacturing techniques have dramatically ameliorated this problem. The actual primary cause of lithium-ion battery thermal runaways and explosions is the formation of dendrites (spiky whiskers of lithium) and lithium metal plating on the separator wall that precipitates out of the electrolyte as a result of stresses such as hard charging, discharging, temperature extremes, vibrations, shock, etc. The build-up of lithium metal within the electrolyte can penetrate the separator membrane inside the battery leading to a short. Lithium metal burns hot and fast and when it comes into contact with the air it will cause the lithium saturated electrolyte to burst into flame.

The notion that battery protection circuitry only protects against external influences seem equally absurd and inaccurate. When battery voltage is too high or too low for it's rated specs the protection circuit is monitoring the conditions within the battery. When a battery overheats, it is the cell's electrolyte that is getting hot. When a battery experiences a short, either external or internal, the circuitry will cut off any current entering or leaving the cells, etc. (although once in progress a thermal runaway cannot be stopped)

As for your notion that "battery power banks storing huge amounts of charge and that sit in cars exposed to direct sun are far more at risk" consider that the Tesla Model S runs on 5,375 or 7104 individual 18650 3.7V lithium-ion cells (same cells as in most power banks) depending on the car model version's kWh rating.
 
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kamkar1

kamkar1

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#76
Im okay with my thread going anywhere, as i myself are a expert in doing to other peoples threads.
All the stuff i thing others might need are on page 1 and i have no plans to expand further on this, when i get new side cameras i will make a new thread for that as i think that will be a elaborate undertaking.
 

SawMaster

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#77
I have a friend who has an older DJI and who is also knowledgeable about LiIon technology. They are well made and well protected as has been noted, but there is no totally safe Li battery technology no matter who makes it and how it is dealt with. Protection circuits can fail as they are done electronically and we all know electronics cs can fail. Everyone should do it like DJI for safety reasons, but it's not cheap, and with a careful user you can dispense with some of those things with little increase in risk.

The issue here is that the average user of Li cells and batteries has no clue about their proper care and use, especially should things go catastrophically wrong. In a front cam you might notice it beginning to smoke in time to save the day, but in a side or rear cam the situation might be beyond saving before you discover it. All here know of the heat issues I have where I live, and it is only by necessity that I currently have a battery-powered cam in regular use. It's not in front where I'll always see it, but right behind my head where I can't normally see it, and that does concern me but not hugely. When possible it will go back to being a spare cam, which is what that one does best anyway.

Phil
 

c4rc4m

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#78
I don't think that is obvious and searching for news of car fires caused by powerbanks gives surprisingly few results, fires/smoke on aeroplanes seems far more common, often because of physical damage and possibly because of air pressure changes.
https://www.scmp.com/video/china/2149759/power-bank-explodes-bus-china

https://thecoverage.my/news/malaysia-power-bank-explodes-ignites-car-flames-hot-afternoon/

https://www.newsflare.com/video/65439/crime-accidents/power-bank-explosion

https://www.cnet.com/news/watch-a-power-bank-catch-fire-in-planes-overhead-bin-china-southern/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...-sustains-burns-as-bedroom-floor-catches-fire

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/healt...ble-cell-phone-charger-catches-fire-1.3992451

https://mobilityarena.com/shocking-photos-see-power-bank-set-owner-fire/


Yes as I've said many times, the exception rather than the rule. But power banks demand some precautions and use is an individual choice.


Im okay with my thread going anywhere, as i myself are a expert in doing to other peoples threads.
All the stuff i thing others might need are on page 1 and i have no plans to expand further on this, when i get new side cameras i will make a new thread for that as i think that will be a elaborate undertaking.
Thanks KamKar once again. I never thought a simple "be careful" post would turn into a 3 page side debate.

Back to sidecameras!
 
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kamkar1

kamkar1

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#79
Well i agree lipo / high power batteries are for the advanced user, and even then they are still a risk as we have seen in a range of uses.
But we should not fear them, if we do we are back to the time where a guy had to walk with a red flag in front of a automobile to warn riders and other people of the monster.

Reading tech sites it also seem like a slew of new technologies that will make batteries safer and able to store even more are just around the corner.
 

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#80
Thanks @c4rc4m for once again enlightening us power bank owners, handing out advice about a product you don't own and only know about from things you find on the internet. ;)
 
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