UHS-II microSD compatible dashcams on the horizon? (plus the elephant of UFS)

[Agie]

Having seen the advances over recent years in dashcams, we haven't seen much in terms of the read and write speeds for microSD memory cards. Although cameras can now take up to 512GB UHS-I microSD memory cards, we haven't seen any compatible with the faster UHS-II standard (has come in handy for me with my mirrorless cameras). For example, the Vantrue Nexus 4 Pro runs on a Novatek NT98529 chipset, which if it's listed correctly, is on an ARM Cortex A9 processor architecture that is from like 15 years ago.....

I do wonder with 4K cameras and the bitrate at which they write to cards at, if it would be beneficial for dashcam manufacturers to move to UHS-II support. UFS I presume would add too much cost to the BOM for dashcams, so while it would be beneficial in terms of speed (my phone has UFS 3.1 and that writes at NVMe SSD speeds), this wouldn't work in the dashcam industry. Although let's face it, read and write's in the thousands of MB's a second would be pretty sweet for dashcams, to enable higher bitrate videos......

 

[Vortex Radar]

I’ve been wondering about this too. Maybe as processor speeds keep climbing and transistor sizes keep shrinking to keep dashcams cooler, we’ll see more channels at higher bitrates which would require faster cards. Basically addressing all the bottlenecks together.

It makes a big difference offloading multiple cards from multiple cams and how much of a difference it is when working with fast vs slow cards.

 

[Agie]

I’ve been wondering about this too. Maybe as processor speeds keep climbing and transistor sizes keep shrinking to keep dashcams cooler, we’ll see more channels at higher bitrates which would require faster cards. Basically addressing all the bottlenecks together.

It makes a big difference offloading multiple cards from multiple cams and how much of a difference it is when working with fast vs slow cards.

cheers mate, was literally watching your channel the other day, hanging out for a Nexus 4 Pro review =p, but in all seriousness love the work you do it's of great assistance to everyone out there.

That's exactly it, but it seems that the dashcam manufacturers are stuck with certain components, all the major players are stuck with Sony sensors and Novatek chipsets - of which the chipsets seem to be progressing at glacial speeds compared to the rest of the tech industry.....

 

[Nigel]

read and write's in the thousands of MB's a second would be pretty sweet for dashcams, to enable higher bitrate videos

If we go for a very high end 4K dashcam, better than any current dashcam, then we need 100Mb/s divided by 10 bits = 10MByte per second per channel, if it has 4 of those 4K channels then we have 40 MB/s, which is very excessive for any dashcam. There is no need for hundreds and certainly not thousands of MB per second.

Realistically, any current V30 class memory card should work fine with any dashcam that is going to be available in the next decade.

The problems we have are with speed degradation due to things like overheating and internal card maintenance activities, and these are not covered by the UHS specifications.

In future we may need less card speed due to using better codecs such as AV1 which require less bitrate for the same image quality.

UHS-II microSD compatible dashcams on the horizon?​

I believe our dashcams are all already compatible with UHS-II memory cards, although they probably don't make use of the full UHS specification, because they have no reason to do so.

 

[Agie]

If we go for a very high end 4K dashcam, better than any current dashcam, then we need 100Mb/s divided by 10 bits = 10MByte per second per channel, if it has 4 of those 4K channels then we have 40 MB/s, which is very excessive for any dashcam. There is no need for hundreds and certainly not thousands of MB per second.

Realistically, any current V30 class memory card should work fine with any dashcam that is going to be available in the next decade.

The problems we have are with speed degradation due to things like overheating and internal card maintenance activities, and these are not covered by the UHS specifications.

In future we may need less card speed due to using better codecs such as AV1 which require less bitrate for the same image quality.


I believe our dashcams are all already compatible with UHS-II memory cards, although they probably don't make use of the full UHS specification, because they have no reason to do so.

Perhaps but I'd still not want the compression of video, but as you say that can be solved by AV1 codec. Which isn't marginally that different from H.265 anyways.

I'm not sure about UHS-II, maybe there will be reason to in future. For cameras it makes sense as the time between burst shots and the buffer being ready again, is quite useful compared to only having UHS-I.

The million dollar question is when does it all become law of diminishing returns? We have all the resolution and clarity we need, now we just need to improve capture of moving objects i.e. licence plates in all lighting conditions. Whether that's just sensor technology/AI etc.

 

[Nigel]

Perhaps but I'd still not want the compression of video, but as you say that can be solved by AV1 codec. Which isn't marginally that different from H.265 anyways.

Uncompressed video is impractical, even the best professional video cameras use some sort of compression.

AV1 is a completely different codec to H265, had to be because of all the H265 related patents and licenses. The amount of compression for a given quality is only a little better than H265 in general tests, but for dashcam driving video it seems to do significantly better, at least subjectively. It appears to make more effort to keep the important detail in plates and to avoid blockiness that ruins backgrounds and skies. Of course something else probably gets lost instead, but it appears to be something unimportant for dashcam video, I suspect mainly details that can be described as noise.

I'm not sure about UHS-II, maybe there will be reason to in future. For cameras it makes sense as the time between burst shots and the buffer being ready again, is quite useful compared to only having UHS-I.

Photo cameras recording bursts of raw photos are a very different task to dashcam video. The photo camera memory card has time to cool down and carry out card maintenance (eg physical block deletion and wear levelling) between bursts.

The million dollar question is when does it all become law of diminishing returns? We have all the resolution and clarity we need, now we just need to improve capture of moving objects i.e. licence plates in all lighting conditions. Whether that's just sensor technology/AI etc.

FHD dashcams were capable of recording license plates, but they typically had only one channel, now we are up to 4 channels on some dashcams, which is probably enough for most people, and too many to install.

It is clear that the best new Starvis 2 4K dashcams are a big step forward over previous cameras, they give better night time performance with better resolution than previous cameras with good night time performance, but we are still using H264 in most of them! There is scope for some more big improvements yet...

 

[Agie]

Uncompressed video is impractical, even the best professional video cameras use some sort of compression.

AV1 is a completely different codec to H265, had to be because of all the H265 related patents and licenses. The amount of compression for a given quality is only a little better than H265 in general tests, but for dashcam driving video it seems to do significantly better, at least subjectively. It appears to make more effort to keep the important detail in plates and to avoid blockiness that ruins backgrounds and skies. Of course something else probably gets lost instead, but it appears to be something unimportant for dashcam video, I suspect mainly details that can be described as noise.


Photo cameras recording bursts of raw photos are a very different task to dashcam video. The photo camera memory card has time to cool down and carry out card maintenance (eg physical block deletion and wear levelling) between bursts.


FHD dashcams were capable of recording license plates, but they typically had only one channel, now we are up to 4 channels on some dashcams, which is probably enough for most people, and too many to install.

It is clear that the best new Starvis 2 4K dashcams are a big step forward over previous cameras, they give better night time performance with better resolution than previous cameras with good night time performance, but we are still using H264 in most of them! There is scope for some more big improvements yet...

4k seems plenty enough and we probably don't need 8k but at some stage we will get it whether we like it or not regardless.

To me the chipsets seem like the bottleneck here. Sony is doing decent work with their Starvis sensors, maybe not on the levels of what happens with phone image sensors but still decent nonetheless. 2 or 3 cameras in a vehicle is plenty enough, just hope to see 4k 60fps across all channels and we should be good.

For whatever reason Novatek is working with archaic architectures, the possibilities are endless if they jumped to something newer that Sony could work better with...

 

[Nigel]

4k seems plenty enough and we probably don't need 8k but at some stage we will get it whether we like it or not regardless.

We could do with 8K on the front, then we would have enough resolution that when pulling out of a junction it could see both ways down the road you are joining while still being able to read plates, just like the driver can, if he turns his head to look both ways. 3840 * 2 = 7680 x 2160 would be a nice resolution, so 2x the current pixels and 2x the current bitrate, 100Mb/s should be enough although a bit more would be nice as an option.

To me the chipsets seem like the bottleneck here. Sony is doing decent work with their Starvis sensors, maybe not on the levels of what happens with phone image sensors but still decent nonetheless.

They should be doing the HDR on the sensor where it can be done efficiently, not on the SoC where large amounts of data needs moving and manipulating. I think the compression codec should also be handled by the sensor.

just hope to see 4k 60fps across all channels and we should be good.

For accident recording, 30fps is sufficient. 60fps is nice to watch, but really not necessary except for race cars.

For whatever reason Novatek is working with archaic architectures,

Not convinced that this is correct, what they are using does the task required in terms of processing, they don't have a particularly complex task, there is just a lot of data to process. There are a few things that require improvement, but they do seem to be working on those, as will be seen soon with the new Novatek processor in the new Viofo A229 Pro.

 

[Agie]

We could do with 8K on the front, then we would have enough resolution that when pulling out of a junction it could see both ways down the road you are joining while still being able to read plates, just like the driver can, if he turns his head to look both ways. 3840 * 2 = 7680 x 2160 would be a nice resolution, so 2x the current pixels and 2x the current bitrate, 100Mb/s should be enough although a bit more would be nice as an option.


They should be doing the HDR on the sensor where it can be done efficiently, not on the SoC where large amounts of data needs moving and manipulating. I think the compression codec should also be handled by the sensor.


For accident recording, 30fps is sufficient. 60fps is nice to watch, but really not necessary except for race cars.


Not convinced that this is correct, what they are using does the task required in terms of processing, they don't have a particularly complex task, there is just a lot of data to process. There are a few things that require improvement, but they do seem to be working on those, as will be seen soon with the new Novatek processor in the new Viofo A229 Pro.

If it is Cortex A9's like Google says it is for the newer Novatek chipsets then yes that is pretty ancient, like Vortex said above, they could be using newer ones on a smaller nm architecture so it could run cooler and more efficiently, less power usage etc

That's what I just don't get. The image sensors are getting better, but everything surrounding it isn't. Even IP cameras are getting things like wifi 6, but dashcams have only just gotten dual band 5ghz wifi. The development pace is glacial... what new Novatek processor is the A229 Pro going to get by the way

 

[Nigel]

what new Novatek processor is the A229 Pro going to get by the way

You will have to wait and see, maybe it sort everything you have just mentioned...

 

[Agie]

I’ve been wondering about this too. Maybe as processor speeds keep climbing and transistor sizes keep shrinking to keep dashcams cooler, we’ll see more channels at higher bitrates which would require faster cards. Basically addressing all the bottlenecks together.

It makes a big difference offloading multiple cards from multiple cams and how much of a difference it is when working with fast vs slow cards.

Sorry to drag this back out from the graveyard, but saw this memory card here and the speeds, and it made me drool for a time when there will be a Viofo dashcam in 3-Ch config. with 4K front, 4K back and 2K or even 4K for cabin...... https://www.windowscentral.com/silicon-power-superior-pro-review

 

[Nigel]

Sorry to drag this back out from the graveyard, but saw this memory card here and the speeds, and it made me drool for a time when there will be a Viofo dashcam in 3-Ch config. with 4K front, 4K back and 2K or even 4K for cabin...... https://www.windowscentral.com/silicon-power-superior-pro-review

But the CrystalDiskMark benchmark results at that link show that card is slower than the Viofo memory card you tested and posted the CrystalDiskMark results for here:

Viofo A229 Pro (unboxing & first impressions) (Novatek NT96529, Sony IMX678/IMX675/IMX307, HDR³, GPS⁴, 5Ghz WiFi, 4k front + 2k rear + 1080p cabin)

After re-igniting my love of dash cameras with my earlier thoughts on the Vantrue Nexus 4 Pro, this time I've got the Viofo A229 Pro to check out. There are plenty of well-written reviews from the big boys here on DCT, so I won't bore you with the exact specifications and bitrates and the like...

dashcamtalk.com

 

[Agie]

But the CrystalDiskMark benchmark results at that link show that card is slower than the Viofo memory card you tested and posted the CrystalDiskMark results for here:

Viofo A229 Pro (unboxing & first impressions) (Novatek NT96529, Sony IMX678/IMX675/IMX307, HDR³, GPS⁴, 5Ghz WiFi, 4k front + 2k rear + 1080p cabin)

After re-igniting my love of dash cameras with my earlier thoughts on the Vantrue Nexus 4 Pro, this time I've got the Viofo A229 Pro to check out. There are plenty of well-written reviews from the big boys here on DCT, so I won't bore you with the exact specifications and bitrates and the like...

dashcamtalk.com

Not the top two all important ones. Unfortunately CrystalDiskMark isn't the be-all and end-all, wish they'd run HD Tune Pro or something similar.

 

[Nigel]

Not the top two all important ones.

Do you know that those two are the important ones, and not the bottom two on the right?

We don't have an issue if we are using the cameras single channel with everything happening sequentially, it is when things get complicated with multiple channels simultaneously and frequent FAT table updates that things tend to go wrong...

 

[Agie]

Do you know that those two are the important ones, and not the bottom two on the right?

We don't have an issue if we are using the cameras single channel with everything happening sequentially, it is when things get complicated with multiple channels simultaneously and frequent FAT table updates that things tend to go wrong...

Not sure either of us are looking at that table correctly.

Regardless, who cares. Whether you like it or not, or I like it or not, the prices on these UHS-II cards are gonna come down and what do U think is going to happen? (Beyond this, no idea. CompactFlash seems to be getting in the way of the SD Express and development on those cards seems to have stalled).

Manufacturers are going to take advantage of the increased horsepower, the lower-power-consumption microcontrollers (already started happening with Samsung foundry) that are going to keep the heat and writing/reading under control.

If that results in a 4k+4k+2k or 4k+4k+4k or 8k dashcam, I'm all for it. The more resolution the better. Will we see missed incidents here and there like we do on crappy or good microSD cards, higher/lower bitrates? Sure, that risk will never be fully alleviated in tech.

Will the manufacturers get on top of these like they have in the past to ensure the majority of users don't run into issues? Absolutely. Do I want for clear footage that my eyes can no longer discern the pixels (4k is good enough, 8k is a bonus but not essential) - yep. Is my vision perfect at my age? Yep.

I welcome the progression in technology. I'm all for it.

*mic drop*

 

[Agie]

Looks like SanDisk has announced some new cards today: https://www.cdrlabs.com/news/western-digital-unveils-new-sandisk-storage-solutions.html

Honestly don't know what to make of the Outdoors series that now comes in HD, FHD or 4K variants. Is this just another reason to ripoff users with a slower write speed under the supposed premise of catering to their devices.

Either way, I like the logo and the orange colour scheme. Even better than the Nintendo Switch themed microSD cards.

 

[Dashmellow]

I like the logo and the orange colour scheme.

Perfect! Just in time for Halloween !

 

[Agie]

Perfect! Just in time for Halloween !

View attachment 68584

That's what I was thinking too!

Somehow I feel that jaguar/leopard is Nigel creeping up in the comments with something to say BWHAHA

 

[Agie]

Perfect! Just in time for Halloween !

View attachment 68584

Alright looks like it will be designated Outdoors (HD video, Class 4), Outdoors Plus (full HD video, class 10, V10) and Outdoors Pro (4k, V30).

Only the Outdoors Pro have the creepy animals on there, Outdoor Plus has this crappy green Minecraft block pattern on it, while Outdoors is just plain old orange

Honestly seems like a ploy by ****Disk where they can put slower cheaper years-gone-by tech in these SD cards and make a killing on the profit margins.

 

[Dashmellow]

Alright looks like it will be designated Outdoors (HD video, Class 4), Outdoors Plus (full HD video, class 10, V10) and Outdoors Pro (4k, V30).

Only the Outdoors Pro have the creepy animals on there, Outdoor Plus has this crappy green Minecraft block pattern on it, while Outdoors is just plain old orange

Honestly seems like a ploy by ****Disk where they can put slower cheaper years-gone-by tech in these SD cards and make a killing on the profit margins.

They do seem pretty pricey for what you get but they also seem to be made for rugged conditions. That too may be marketing hype as most cards are pretty rugged these days, so not sure that justifies the prices.

It's an interesting marketing scheme to make them in Blaze Orange to appeal to the hunter crowd as they will certainly stand out in displays at the sporting goods stores. Many of these buyers have no idea about memory card specs and that's probably what they are counting on.

Then again, memory cards that are orange on both sides would definitely be easier to see in the low light conditions one often encounters when hunting or when dropped on the forest floor. This is an interesting idea and I could have used such a card more than a few times to find cards that I've dropped or had go shooting off somewhere in my truck. In fact, just the other evening, I fumbled with a memory card I was reinserting into a side camera on the rear open door of my truck and dropped it onto my gravel driveway. It took several minutes of looking for it with a flashlight because the black side of the card was facing up and it blended into its surroundings. A card that's blaze orange or some other florescent color on both sides would have been easy to spot.