Mini 806 Capacitor Model?

[Sunny]

If you ever do any valet parking, the trick is to pop the sd card out for a second before switching off and while it is still recording, guaranteed to corrupt the last file and then there can be no criticism of your driving standards as there is no evidence!

Also a good way of damaging the SD cards prematurely.

 

[reverend]

It seems like batteries fail in all dashcams though - if you're a hobbyist in cooler climates then batteries may be fine as you're happy to crack it open and replace when it fails - if you want a camera that just works in extreme hot and cold then capacitors are just a simple option.

The Mobius is another example. Batteries die and cause random issues but capacitor versions are fine. I had issues with the G90 when parked at a valets as it didn't get enough charge and corrupted the last file and then that made the camera pointless as it just sat there recording nothing.

The problem is a dashcam with a very well designed charging circuit is going to cost more per unit due to extra R&D, which gets skipped a lot on the cheaper cameras as they just want to shift as many cheap units as possible.

 

[Sunny]

I had issues with the G90 when parked at a valets as it didn't get enough charge and corrupted the last file and then that made the camera pointless as it just sat there recording nothing.

On G90, there is a bug in the software.
It's good that it can recover file that was not saved last time but it prompts user to click yes or no instead of doing that automatically and starting to record instead of waiting and doing nothing.
That's a major programming flaw.

 

[reverend]

It is a bug but at the same time it's right that it's warning you that there's a problem - if it said nothing when it knows there's a problem then you'd have a dashcam that corrupts every last file if the battery is nadgered - and they're the ones you actually always want.

Even if they had a 15 second timeout over here you're supposed to have the screen hidden away so you'd never see the message pop up.

From saying that it would make sense to have the camera beep like crazy for say 10 seconds at startup when that happened so that you'd have your attention drawn to it and look but saying that it's no good for the same sort of people that ignore engine lights that light up on their cars

 

[Nigel]

The Mobius is another example. Batteries die and cause random issues but capacitor versions are fine.

Why do the batteries die? Maybe they are overcharging then to get maximum run time because it's designed as an action cam?

There are a lot of super capacitor related problem threads on the forum with issues like loosing the time because the capacitor has run out of power. Issues that battery powered cameras don't have.

 

[reverend]

Not really - the Mobius was designed initially as a battery product which is why it doesn't have an RTC backup for the clock. The capacitor was bodged on afterwards. The batteries die due to dodgy chargers usually from what I've read which can't supply enough power. Heck maybe that's sometimes the problems on a lot of other cameras that come with cheap chargers.

The Transcend DP200 has issues but I've never seen inside one of those.

Cameras designed from the outset to have capacitors also have the correct backup solutions in place for things like the setup and time - it's a problem that they fix at engineering time.

 

[Dashmellow]

That is because they can justify charging more money because they are obviously superior.

But the evidence to support a super capacitor being superior is a bit hard to find! It is true that some cameras eat batteries in hot weather, but would they also eat super capacitors? With a good design of charging circuit that doesn't try to fill the battery to overflowing and takes into account that the battery overflows sooner at high temperatures a lipo battery can last many years.

Under ideal conditions, a lithium-polymer battery should last about two or three years. Under the stressful conditions in an automobile such as heat/cold, vibration and constant short charging cycles they are likely to suffer wear and tear and their lifespan will be dramatically shortened. There are also safety issues with lithium-ions, as is well known.

Super-capacitors avoid these problems and should last potentially millions of cycles under much more extreme conditions. Under most conditions they will maintain the date and time for at least a week (or more, depending on the camera) without needing an additional charge.



"The supercapacitor can be charged and discharged virtually an unlimited number of times. Unlike the electrochemical battery, which has a defined cycle life, there is little wear and tear by cycling a supercapacitor. Nor does age affect the device, as it would a battery. Under normal conditions, a supercapacitor fades from the original 100 percent capacity to 80 percent in 10 years. The supercapacitor functions well at hot and cold temperatures."

Source: Battery University - BU-209: Supercapacitor

 

[Nigel]

Under ideal conditions, a lithium-polymer battery should last about two or three years.

I don't really believe that, maybe because I'm typing this on a laptop with a 5 year old lithium battery which has a camera plugged into it for charging which contains a 4 year old lipo battery!

 

[Sunny]

I don't really believe that, maybe because I'm typing this on a laptop with a 5 year old lithium battery which has a camera plugged into it for charging which contains a 4 year old lipo battery!

I have a Dell latitude from 2006 and still the battery works even though it doesn't last the originally claimed hours.
However, laptops don't stay in harsh conditions like the dashcams under the hot Sun or below freezing all the time.

 

[Nigel]

I have a Dell latitude from 2006 and still the battery works even though it doesn't last the originally claimed hours.
However, laptops don't stay in harsh conditions like the dashcams under the hot Sun or below freezing all the time.

The quote was "Under ideal conditions, a lithium-polymer battery should last about two or three years.", maybe they last longer under non-ideal conditions, it can get quite warm inside a laptop!

 

[Dashmellow]

I don't really believe that, maybe because I'm typing this on a laptop with a 5 year old lithium battery which has a camera plugged into it for charging which contains a 4 year old lipo battery!

In stating a two to three year lifespan I'm referring to the typical lithium-polymer pack in your dash cam, Nigel. The array of 18650 cells in your laptop battery along with the battery management system built into your computer is a whole different kettle of fish and can't really be compared. Also, the harsh conditions in an automobile don't apply to your use of your computer battery.

 

[Sunny]

The quote was "Under ideal conditions, a lithium-polymer battery should last about two or three years.", maybe they last longer under non-ideal conditions, it can get quite warm inside a laptop!

True but I know my laptop's battery doesn't have the same capacity as before.
I think originally it was supposed to last 3.5 hours and now it hardly gives around an hour so do you call that lasting 10 years or only count the time when it delivers full capacity?

I've seen battery lasting 10 years and also failing within few months.
Not all batteries are made the same way either.
I replaced a battery in my other laptop with cheaper aftermarket and that died within a year. I mean it didn't die but full charge doesn't last even half hour so in a way it lasted and still is working but if you think of it compared to original spec, it didn't last.

 

[Nigel]

...so do you call that lasting 10 years or only count the time when it delivers full capacity?

Good question.

The battery in my mini 0803 will currently record for 35 minutes but if it only lasted 35 seconds then I would consider the dashcam to be working since it really only needs to last the 10 second shutdown period and even that is far longer than any super capacitor dashcam can last.

 

[Dashmellow]

Good question.

The battery in my mini 0803 will currently record for 35 minutes but if it only lasted 35 seconds then I would consider the dashcam to be working since it really only needs to last the 10 second shutdown period and even that is far longer than any super capacitor dashcam can last.

When a dash cam battery is only keeping the camera going for 35 seconds (to use your example), it may seem fine but the problem is that when a battery has reached that state it is at risk of suddenly and unexpectedly dropping past the threshold that would keep the camera operating. Personally, I would consider this unacceptable since one could risk losing the last file in the event of a traffic incident. In fact, I just replaced the battery in my old Gt300W exactly for this reason, as the battery was reaching a point of diminishing returns.

 

[Dashmellow]

BTW, rechargeable battery life is usually defined by manufacturers as the number of full charge-discharge cycles, not the number of years it will last. For example, a typical laptop battery is usually rated for 300-500 cycles. Of course, the cycle life is shortened if the battery ages prematurely due to stress. The number of charge/discharge cycles in a typical dash cam lithium-polymer (ion) battery, along with the numerous stressors encountered in an automotive environment far exceed most other uses for these types of batteries.

 

[mr_milo]

here is my unique mini 0806 on the world, for now.

View attachment 11407 View attachment 11409 View attachment 11410 View attachment 11411 View attachment 11412

Does it actually work?

Some people may DIY that modification, but I suspect the super cap is not big enough without some big firmware changes...

Personally unless there are firmware changes or the 0806 is MUCH more efficient than the 0803, this capacitor isn't working.

In my 0803 I have 7.5Fs and it works OK. However if I leave my car for a long weekend the cap dies and the clock resets. Luckily the GPS will reset everything for me after a few minutes of driving. I drive the car daily so it's not a problem to me but could be for many people.

I would LOVE to see this working with 2.5Fs. The lack of a super cap is one of the main reasons I don't have a 0806 and have started looking into other alternatives.

 

[mr_milo]

Well it looks like the possibilities for a Capacitor version might change..... I just received my most recent parts order (I work in electronics) and got my hands on a 15F 5.6V cap that is amazingly small.
Its the Vishay P/N: MAL219691214E3 capacitor and it's only 0.472" Dia x 0.394" L. Looking at the datasheet it seems like they have many varieties which might be able to be squeezed in the case and provide 15F+.

I plan on mounting this 15F unit in my 0803 and test it out. Stay tuned!

 

[scritchoune]

As I already said to Rayman, if they want to benefit from both caps & bat wold they could opt for a smaller removable sliding battery and put the capacitor into the hardwire kit or gps mount.

1. when car battery gives its current : charging the cam battery (without overcharges) if present !
2. when cranking or if they are no hardwire kit and there is no acc current or in case of reached battery drains prevention level: capacitor is drained (no reboots, nor lost files) for several minutes
3. if a user want to opperate the cam unconnected he can take the fully charged removable batt from his (cooler) glovebox and put it in the cam for 2h of unconnected usage

I never clearly understand why we were always told that ther isn't room to put a supercaps in the 080x series while there is in the even tinier mobius ?!?

 

[jokiin]

Novatek can get away with smaller caps than Ambarella, the Möbius also being screenless and without GPS doesn't use a lot of power

 

[Deleted member 46308]

can you wait wait and wait for iphone 99 ?

i don't think I have that much time left