Power bank with Motion detect mode for security and driving?

[newton]

So Im going to add a second mobius to the rear of my car and just need a bit of help with something Im considering doing please.

I want to use a power bank to use for security footage when Im parked away from home. Preferably to put the mobius in motion detection mode. Rather than needing a bigger card than the originally recommended 32GB and also only relevant footage will be stored (hopefully).

My question is if I leave both mobius in that mode, can they be used successfully as a dashcam without me having to change the mode when I disconnect the powerbank and plug the power back in? They will both be super cap powered.


Any help is appreciated. I know @Dashmellow has mentioned he uses a power bank, but not sure of the configuration. Im not sure if a powerbank with 'smart charge' feature may also mean it would turn off early if it thought the super cap was charged fully.

I have read similar threads, but nothing answers all of my questions, so please accept my apologies if I repeat questions that have already been asked.

 

[Dashmellow]

Hi @newton, I'm not a big fan of motion detection in dash cams or any traditional CCTV surveillance cam either, for that matter. The problem is that when used outdoors there can be many false triggers or times when you expect it to record and then find out that it didn't. Motion detection works best in an indoor static environment such as a warehouse, retail space or office at night where the only motion the camera detects is the motion you actually want to record. Outdoors, shooting from a car for parking mode, all kinds of unexpected things can trigger recording such as wind blowing through leaves in trees, clouds moving in the sky, birds flying by or pedestrians or pets walking past your vehicle......or whatever. You will never find the right sensitivity that will work for all situations.

As far as using motion detection while you are driving, forget it. Just put that silly idea out of your mind. There are countless posts here on DCT from new dash cam owners who report that their camera suddenly isn't working properly or simply stopped recording when they didn't expect it to and then when one of us more experienced members here on DCT asks that knowing question, it turns out that the person with the problem was attempting to use motion detection while driving.

To respond to your other question about changing modes after you unplug and replug the camera the answer is basically, NO. When you plug a Mobius camera back in it will restart in whatever video mode it was set to in the firmware, either motion detect or regular video. If you want to switch the camera to or from motion detect, you need to change that setting in the firmware.

I regularly use two 20,000 mAh powerbanks to run 4 cams when parked and away from my vehicle (three Mobius cams sides & rear and an SG9665GC facing forward) but I run them in full time video mode and use 64GB cards which provide me with more than enough time to capture what happens when I'm not around. The powerbanks would pretty much run the cams all day if I wanted them to.

The problem with many power banks on the market today is they are increasingly too "smart" for convenient dash cam use. I like to say that they are "too smart for their own good!" The issue isn't so much that they will think your camera is all charged up and will shut off (although it is possible), the problem is that because the battery bank is "smart" it can make the camera think it is connected to a computer rather than just a power source and will therefore go into "mass storage" mode or into standby and won't begin recording.

Most of the time you can get around such issues by modifying a USB cable by cutting the data wires inside it and leaving just the power wire and the ground but recently I encountered a situation where even a modified USB cable wouldn't work with a smart battery bank for reasons I still don't quite understand but that seem to have to do with the way the power bank detects voltage before it decides what to do.

So my advice is to always shoot full time video if you are using a Mobius and to look for a powerbank that is as "dumb" as possible, which is becoming more difficult as such power banks appear to be a dying breed.

 

[newton]

Hi @newton, I'm not a big fan of motion detection in dash cams or any traditional CCTV surveillance either, for that matter. The problem is that when used outdoors there can be many false triggers or times when you expect it to record and then find out that it didn't. Motion detection works best in an indoor static environment such as a warehouse, retail space or office at night where the only motion the camera detects is the motion you actually want to record. Outdoors, shooting from a car for parking mode, all kinds of unexpected things can trigger recording such as wind blowing through leaves in trees, clouds moving in the sky, birds flying by or pedestrians or pets walking past your vehicle......or whatever. You will never find the right sensitivity that will work for all situations.

As far as using motion detection while you are driving, forget it. Just put that silly idea out of your mind. There are countless posts here on DCT from new dash cam owners who report that their camera suddenly isn't working properly or simply stopped recording when they didn't expect it to and then when one of us more experienced members here on DCT asks that knowing question, it turns out that the person with the problem was attempting to use motion detection while driving.

To respond to your other question about changing modes after you unplug and replug the camera the answer is basically, NO. When you plug a Mobius camera back in it will restart in whatever video mode it was set to in the firmware, either motion detect or regular video. If you want to switch the camera to or from motion detect, you need to change that setting in the firmware.

I regularly use two 20,000 mAh powerbanks to run 4 cams when parked and away from my vehicle (three Mobius cams sides & rear and an SG9665GC facing forward) but I run them in full time video mode and use 64GB cards which provide me with more than enough time to capture what happens when I'm not around. The powerbanks would pretty much run the cams all day if I wanted them to.

The problem with many power banks on the market today is they are increasingly too "smart" for convenient dash cam use. I like to say that they are "too smart for their own good!" The issue isn't so much that they will think your camera is all charged up and will shut off (although it is possible), the problem is that because the battery bank is "smart" it can make the camera think it is connected to a computer rather than just a power source and will therefore go into "mass storage" mode or into standby and won't begin recording.

Most of the time you can get around such issues by modifying a USB cable by cutting the data wires inside it and leaving just the power wire and the ground but recently I encountered a situation where even a modified USB cable wouldn't work with a smart battery bank for reasons I still don't quite understand but that seem to have to do with the way the power bank detects voltage before it decides what to do.

So my advice is to always shoot full time video if you are using a Mobius and to look for a powerbank that is as "dumb" as possible, which is becoming more difficult as such power banks appears to be a dying breed.

Thank you very much for your detailed reply and explanation. You have answered all my questions and preempted the follow up ones as well. Saved me some time and money with trial and error.

At the most now I may invest in a higher capacity Micro SD card.

Thanks again. Its very much appreciated.

 

[Cagnulein]

Hi everyone, i would like to buy a Mobius in order to do what @netwon requested.
So for what i understand from the @Dashmellow words i will have to use standard record mode (not MD) because the car will be outside.
But i'm worried about the storage: i will probably leave the car 10 hours in a row in the park, so with a 64gb sdcard how many hours of video could i record at the lower format?
I'm new of the Mobius world, so please be nice on me if a ask a stupid question

 

[Dashmellow]

Hi everyone, i would like to buy a Mobius in order to do what @netwon requested.
So for what i understand from the @Dashmellow words i will have to use standard record mode (not MD) because the car will be outside.
But i'm worried about the storage: i will probably leave the car 10 hours in a row in the park, so with a 64gb sdcard how many hours of video could i record at the lower format?
I'm new of the Mobius world, so please be nice on me if a ask a stupid question

There are no stupid questions, so don't be afraid to ask.

A 64GB card will record for approximately 8 hours in your Mobius before it starts overwriting the earlier footage.

When the volume is turned OFF in the GUI menu the sound track is completely eliminated which will increase the recording time by about 7% .

Check out the very useful Recording Time Calculator here on DashCamTalk.

 

[PTZ]

Hi @newton, I'm not a big fan of motion detection in dash cams or any traditional CCTV surveillance cam either, for that matter. The problem is that when used outdoors there can be many false triggers or times when you expect it to record and then find out that it didn't. Motion detection works best in an indoor static environment such as a warehouse, retail space or office at night where the only motion the camera detects is the motion you actually want to record. Outdoors, shooting from a car for parking mode, all kinds of unexpected things can trigger recording such as wind blowing through leaves in trees, clouds moving in the sky, birds flying by or pedestrians or pets walking past your vehicle......or whatever. You will never find the right sensitivity that will work for all situations.

As far as using motion detection while you are driving, forget it. Just put that silly idea out of your mind. There are countless posts here on DCT from new dash cam owners who report that their camera suddenly isn't working properly or simply stopped recording when they didn't expect it to and then when one of us more experienced members here on DCT asks that knowing question, it turns out that the person with the problem was attempting to use motion detection while driving.

To respond to your other question about changing modes after you unplug and replug the camera the answer is basically, NO. When you plug a Mobius camera back in it will restart in whatever video mode it was set to in the firmware, either motion detect or regular video. If you want to switch the camera to or from motion detect, you need to change that setting in the firmware.

I regularly use two 20,000 mAh powerbanks to run 4 cams when parked and away from my vehicle (three Mobius cams sides & rear and an SG9665GC facing forward) but I run them in full time video mode and use 64GB cards which provide me with more than enough time to capture what happens when I'm not around. The powerbanks would pretty much run the cams all day if I wanted them to.

The problem with many power banks on the market today is they are increasingly too "smart" for convenient dash cam use. I like to say that they are "too smart for their own good!" The issue isn't so much that they will think your camera is all charged up and will shut off (although it is possible), the problem is that because the battery bank is "smart" it can make the camera think it is connected to a computer rather than just a power source and will therefore go into "mass storage" mode or into standby and won't begin recording.

Most of the time you can get around such issues by modifying a USB cable by cutting the data wires inside it and leaving just the power wire and the ground but recently I encountered a situation where even a modified USB cable wouldn't work with a smart battery bank for reasons I still don't quite understand but that seem to have to do with the way the power bank detects voltage before it decides what to do.

So my advice is to always shoot full time video if you are using a Mobius and to look for a powerbank that is as "dumb" as possible, which is becoming more difficult as such power banks appear to be a dying breed.

I often shoot Mobius full time video using Always On (battery) mode product offerings from this power company:

http://www.voltaicsystems.com/always-on/

When User set to Always On mode, battery is "dumb" while it has just enough "smarts"

 

[Klippie]

My front and rear cameras are set to record all day when parked up at work, here's today...this pic shows over 10 hours recording on a 64gb card 1080p, 25fps, video data rate set to standard.

Mine are hard wired to the car but I use power bank's on my bike which work very well, I like the Anker brand they are top quality and come in lots of capacities I'am sure they will have one to last +10hrs.

https://www.anker.com/products/taxons/107/Portable Chargers

 

[Dashmellow]

I often shoot Mobius full time video using Always On (battery) mode product offerings from this power company:

http://www.voltaicsystems.com/always-on/

When User set to Always On mode, battery is "dumb" while it has just enough "smarts"

I've not been familiar with their products. Sounds interesting, so thanks for the link. I'm exploring it.

 

[Cagnulein]

Thanks @Dashmellow

@Klippie you're using the Mobius as i would like to use. Just a couple of questions:
1) Did tou experiment with lower video frame rate? For example 5fps? Is it enough to see if someone is doing something on your car? It will improve a lot the life of the sdcard and i hope of the battery
2) And what about time-lapse video also?
3) Did you ever tried this http://www.evobeach.com/2013/09/mobius-actioncam-as-near-infrared-camera.html ? I would like to prepare them for the winter.
4) A 18000mA powerbank could be enough for 2 mobius for 10 hours? Or i have to buy another one?

 

[Klippie]

I experimented with the settings to give me 10hrs as I don't need it to record any longer, the video quality is perfectly good.

As for time lapse its OK for making interesting videos but for car security no.

Infra-red...sorry I've not tried that, bit of a gimmick...?

A 5000mah power bank should be fine for ten hours recording on one camera.

 

[RippleTheRippler]

Thanks @Dashmellow

@Klippie you're using the Mobius as i would like to use. Just a couple of questions:
1) Did tou experiment with lower video frame rate? For example 5fps? Is it enough to see if someone is doing something on your car? It will improve a lot the life of the sdcard and i hope of the battery
2) And what about time-lapse video also?
3) Did you ever tried this http://www.evobeach.com/2013/09/mobius-actioncam-as-near-infrared-camera.html ? I would like to prepare them for the winter.
4) A 18000mA powerbank could be enough for 2 mobius for 10 hours? Or i have to buy another one?

For #4, easily. My 20,000 mAh power bank goes almost 3 days on 1 cam.

 

[mr_milo]

Just saw this thread and had a question. I thought about running my two cameras from a power bank.
I even purchased the Poweradd Pilot Plus 20000mAh unit with pass-through charging since I thought I'd just hook it up and be set.
I tried it and found that my commute simply was not long enough to re-charge the power bank, so I removed it.

Do you guys remove and recharge them? Daily?

 

[RippleTheRippler]

Just saw this thread and had a question. I thought about running my two cameras from a power bank.
I even purchased the Poweradd Pilot Plus 20000mAh unit with pass-through charging since I thought I'd just hook it up and be set.
I tried it and found that my commute simply was not long enough to re-charge the power bank, so I removed it.

Do you guys remove and recharge them? Daily?

I have 2 I cycle. I just replace it daily pretty much as I enter the vehicle, then on exit I put the second one on a charger. Takes 2 seconds and is no hassle to me.

 

[Dashmellow]

Just saw this thread and had a question. I thought about running my two cameras from a power bank.
I even purchased the Poweradd Pilot Plus 20000mAh unit with pass-through charging since I thought I'd just hook it up and be set.
I tried it and found that my commute simply was not long enough to re-charge the power bank, so I removed it.

Do you guys remove and recharge them? Daily?

It is just not a good idea to use pass-through charging for a battery bank for several reasons, despite the fact that some manufacturers claim it to be a feature. Anker used to tout pass-through charging but then they started cautioning that you might expect less longevity from their power banks if you do that. Now they advise against the practice completely as does Isador Buchmann the founder of Cadex and author of Battery University.

Read THIS post and THIS post for further information.

I have the same PowerAdd Pilot Plus 20000mAh unit and it is excellent. (although it's a little weird that the USB ports seem to be upside down) I like that it is a great big single lithium-polymer cell rather than a bank of six or eight 18650 cells because it is safer in an automotive environment with shock and heat and it seems to hold a charge really well. BTW, there is nothing on PowerAdd's web site anywhere that suggests that the PowerAdd Pilot Plus is suitable for or capable of pass-through charging.

Charge the PowerAdd fully and then let it drain down ALL THE WAY three times and then charge it up slowly using a 1 or 2 amp charger and it will give you better performance and longer life than if you just start using it the way it was shipped. I've learned that this can make a big difference in the performance you can expect. In fact, I almost returned a different brand 20,00mAh power bank I bought on Amazon because it didn't hold a charge anywhere near as long as claimed and I thought the rating was a scam. Then I did the full drain procedure and was amazed at the difference it made in the performance and endurance of the battery. It became like a whole different product that I am now thrilled with instead of disappointed in.

Keep in mind that it could take as much as 15-20 hours to fully charge one of these big banks @ 1 amp depending on how drained it is. This is why your commute wasn't anywhere near long enough. Many people use 2 amp chargers as well (including me sometimes) but slower charging is supposed to be preferable for longer cell life.

Anyway, see THIS post for more discussion about all this.

I have two battery banks in my vehicle that I use for running four cameras when away from my truck - an SG9665GC and three Mobius cams. Each battery bank should run two cameras for maybe ten or more hours. I've never pushed it that far but as a test I ran a single Mobius on a 20,000mAh battery until it went dead and it lasted for just over 19 hours and that was already a slightly older power bank.

So, getting around to actually answering your original question, I bring the banks inside when I get home and charge them. Keeping lithium-ions topped off often is a good practice for longevity as it cuts down on the over-all number of full cycle charges and you will always start out with freshly charged batteries when you leave your house. It is also a good practice to let battery banks come up or down to room temperature and let them "rest" for awhile after discharging them before beginning the charging process.

 

[SawMaster]

There are several "Lithium" battery technologies, each with different charge/discharge quirks of their own. Powerbanks will be either"LiPo" (same as what is in cams) or "LiIon" which are usually 18650 format like used in laptop PC's. The good LiIon chargers use controlled current for most of the charge cycle then switch to controlled voltage to finish. In the specs this is usually shown as "CC/CV" charging. Anker, Xiomi, and some other powerbanks are this way but many cheaper ones aren't. Not only does lacking that shorten the cell life, it can also create a Lithium fire hazard. So NO cheap LiIon powerbanks., only the good ones. LiIon's also require discharge protection; drawing current from them too rapidly overheats them leading to thermal run-away. Allowing a LiIon cell to go below about 2.5V ruins it. This protection is found in almost all LiIon powerbanks, but is not as necessary with LiPo's, which also use different charging parameters. LiIon cells don't like being stored with a full charge; their best storage is at about 40%of their capacity. LiPo doesn't care but best to always have at least some charge on them. LiIon's are designed for regular use at least weekly only and excel in everyday use. LiPo's don't care how long they sit idle or how often they are used.

The lifespan of LiPo's is mostly a factor of how many charge cycles it goes through. It doesn't matter if it's a top-up or a full charge from dead. LiIon's lifespan is mostly a matter of it always being in the operating range it prefers, the rate it is charged at, and the quality of the cell. For a given physical size, LiIon offers more capacity, but that energy density comes at a price. LiIon can react with water, it has a lower safe temperature limit, and when operated outside of it's limits can go into thermal runaway causing a nasty lithium fire. The fumes from that can be deadly and cause irreversible lung damage even in small quantities. LiPo is usually sealed to contain fumes if it fails, almost never experiences thermal run-away, can operate in higher heat safely, and isn't so particular about charging and discharging limits and how that's done. It's a more robust technology and for use in a hot car it's the better choice.

With the better LiIon cells of today there is no advantage to 'working them up' with several full discharge/charge cycles before normal use, although that is still effective in lengthening the lifespan of lower quality or older LiIon cells. The best powerbanks use a very good grade of LiIon cells now; cheaper ones don't so they may benefir from this. LiPo likes to start it's working life from a single full charge and does not benefit from this. Lithium battery technology has advanced quite a bit in the last 5 years and is much better now than a decade ago. Yet there is still a lot of old information online that hasn't been updated; and that leads to a lot of confusion and incorrect conclusions. One thing has gotten worse lately though- the faking of high quality cells and batteries as well as the "stretching of facts" for mostof the lower quality ones. I've seen capacity claims that are technically impossible to achieve, but that doesn't stop the practice so same as with dashcams buy only from known reputable sellers.

Even with that, my recent car fire and some testing done elsewhere by heating LiIon flashlights and bare cells with a propane gas torch has led me to now believe that the heat-related risks of LiIon's are quite overstated. The other risks remain (and aren't inconsequential) but I now feel totally safe with LiIon's in my vehicles. Being that I know how to treat and use LiIon's safely, they would be my personal choice in a powerbank because of their higher capacity and energy density, as well as that they would probably last longer than LiPo's in dashcam type usage. Plus I can replace those cells economically or upgrade them to higher capacity ones. Can't do that with most LiPo powerbanks where replacement battery cost may exceed the cost of a whole new unit, and where higher-capacity won't fit inside.

Phil

 

[Dashmellow]

I have learned a lot and come to trust the opinions and advice of Isidor Buchmann, the man behind Battery University, an actual battery scientist, engineer, author and respected authority on the subject.

He is constantly revising and updating the Battery University site which consists mainly of excepts from his recently reprinted and revised book, Batteries in a Portable World.

I trust his advise regarding the initial deep cycling of lithium battery packs along with the results of my experience in doing so.

Symantec's battery advice (which is cited from Isidor Buchmann, the man behind Battery University) says:

"New Li-ion batteries will work best if fully charged, and drained, for the first three charging cycles after purchase. So, after each charge, use the device until the battery completely runs out of juice, says Isidor Buchmann, author of Batteries in a Portable World"

TechRepublic says:

"Batteries are made to be used, so use them. Just like couch potatoes, batteries need exercise. The chemicals in Lithium-Ion batteries respond best to regular recharging."

It is also Isidor Buchmann who claims that keeping lithium-ion batteries topped off has a lower effect on the ultimate number of charging cycles available to each cell. I'll see if I can find his quote and explanation for that.

There is much misinformation, speculation and vooduu out there about batteries and charging so I have been trying to base my own approach on authoritative sources and documentation.

 

[mr_milo]

It is just not a good idea to use pass-through charging for a battery bank for several reasons, despite the fact that some manufacturers claim it to be a feature. Anker used to tout pass-through charging but then they started cautioning that you might expect less longevity from their power banks if you do that. Now they advise against the practice completely as does Isador Buchmann the founder of Cadex and author of Battery University.

I'd agree that charging and discharging a battery at the same time is not a good idea. I haven't tested it but I would assume (hope) that the pass-through charging circuit is smarter than just charging the battery while you discharge it. I assume the pass-through charging circuit uses the incoming power to first charge / supply the devices and uses any remaining power to charge the pack. This would be fairly easy to confirm with three USB power meters but I currently only have one.

Regardless I've used our Poweradd Pilot Plus several times on family trips and our favorite feature is that we can (and do) use is pass-through charging. It's nice to get back to the hotel room, connect two devices to the pack and then connect the pack to the charger. In the morning all three units are fully charged and we are ready to start the day without power concerns.

Sorry I've drifted a bit off topic so this will be all on the topic for me. Unless I can test my theory.

 

[Dashmellow]

I'd agree that charging and discharging a battery at the same time is not a good idea. I haven't tested it but I would assume (hope) that the pass-through charging circuit is smarter than just charging the battery while you discharge it. I assume the pass-through charging circuit uses the incoming power to first charge / supply the devices and uses any remaining power to charge the pack. This would be fairly easy to confirm with three USB power meters but I currently only have one.

Regardless I've used our Poweradd Pilot Plus several times on family trips and our favorite feature is that we can (and do) use is pass-through charging. It's nice to get back to the hotel room, connect two devices to the pack and then connect the pack to the charger. In the morning all three units are fully charged and we are ready to start the day without power concerns.

Sorry I've drifted a bit off topic so this will be all on the topic for me. Unless I can test my theory.

Smartphones, laptops and tablets have battery management systems to allow for the devices to be charged while in use but I'm not aware of any power banks that have this. They basically charge to 100% and then drain down a little bit before resuming the charge. Most people who use power banks don't need or want to charge them while they are using them (to charge other devices) so they are not generally designed that way. Something like a laptop computer on the other hand is often plugged into AC while being used so the circuitry is designed for that.

Everything I have read about pass-through charging suggests that you will get a shorter lifespan from the battery pack and it can stress and even damage the batteries. Then again, I guess there is no reason not to do it of you want to, I guess. My practice is to use multiple power banks and swap a new one into service while charging the drained one. The PowerAdd Plus is only $19.95 shipped from Amazon so it's affordable to have more than one pack but at that price it's probably acceptable to have shorter service life from it too.

 

[SawMaster]

I've read most of what's on the "Battery University" site and have taken note of the publication dates of references the info given was based on, some of which is over a decade out-of-date and is no longer accurate. The LiIon chemistry and seperator designs used in the best cells today didn't even exist when some of that was written. The basics remain similar, but certain details don't. It's a mature but still changing technology. One thing will never change though: You do not get what you do not pay for. Reliability and quality are never cheap but always worth their cost

Multi-cell LiIon applications need 'charge-balancing' circuitry to ensure that the weakest cell in the pack doesn't get overcharged, and discharge protection so that it never falls so low that it 'reverse charges' which can lead to thermal run-away in use or during future charging cycles. Most Hoverboards lack this and the videos abound of the results I am given to understand that some super-cheap powerbanks also lack those protections. A powerbank thermal run-away scenario in your car at highway (or any) speed isn't something you want happening to you. That is why I recommend casual users stick with the LiPo versions, which aren't so much of a risk.

Eventually my work van will have secondary power from a either a big SLA 12V battery or maybe a wet-cell deep-discharge battery if I can find room for that. Better than a bag full of powerbanks The non-work vehicle will get a Xiomi LiIon powerbank.

Phil

 

[jokiin]

One thing will never change though: You do not get what you do not pay for. Reliability and quality are never cheap but always worth their cost

Multi-cell LiIon applications need 'charge-balancing' circuitry to ensure that the weakest cell in the pack doesn't get overcharged, and discharge protection so that it never falls so low that it 'reverse charges' which can lead to thermal run-away in use or during future charging cycles. Most Hoverboards lack this and the videos abound of the results I am given to understand that some super-cheap powerbanks also lack those protections. A powerbank thermal run-away scenario in your car at highway (or any) speed isn't something you want happening to you. That is why I recommend casual users stick with the LiPo versions, which aren't so much of a risk.

there is a massive amount of quality variation between powerbanks, there are quite a lot that are very poor quality and of questionable safety