Thinkware F750 Card Error

[Dee_82]

Hi guys, ive tested a dozen cards now, some work, some don't, ALL however follow the same pattern, the cards that fail have the lowest RANDOM single and multi threaded read speeds.

I was hoping to find where that cut off was but all of my working cards have virtually identical speeds, single threaded random read speeds of 5MB/s to 5.5MB/s and multi threaded random read speeds of 4MB/s to 4.5MB/s

All of the cards that dont work to one degree or another have random speeds of around 3MB/s single threaded and 2 MB/s multi threaded.

It appears that those with SLOWER sequential write speeds do better, where a card is more that 25MB/s sequential write the cards are more often than not, not working and have much slower random read speeds

 

[Adplaya]

I've been using the 64gb samsung EVO+ for maybe 4-5months with no problem, and now I am constantly getting memory card error. The camera will actually reboot during a drive and then say memory card error. I recently formatted the memory card on my computer, hoping that would fix it, but it has not...

Anyone else experience this?? Anyone been running a memory card for 6+ months without a problem?

 

[Dee_82]

memory cards that do not meet the spec required may have issues straight away or may have issues months later. the problem is no two cards are alike. just because someone else has that card and is working ok, doesn't mean yours will work

 

[Adplaya]

memory cards that do not meet the spec required may have issues straight away or may have issues months later. the problem is no two cards are alike. just because someone else has that card and is working ok, doesn't mean yours will work

With the money I've already spent I might as well just buy the $70 thinkware 64gb... If that gives me problems at least I can sit on the phone and piss and moan about getting a new camera/card.

 

[dashcamito]

I'm using this Adata 64gb Microsd card and it seems to be working. I'm on day one. http://m.ncix.com/products/sku/82723

Hey everyone. Just wanted to update you that this AData microsd card of mine decided to write protect itself after 7 months of use.

I had parked at a spot looking at a busy street with parking and motion detect mode on. I found my dashcam rebooting itself when I came back due to the microsd card issue.

I'm tempted to get the same model again but wonder if the card was crap or was it me parking at a busy street.

 

[Dee_82]

can I ask everyone who has an interest in subject help me out.
I am looking for data,

if you can mention if the card worked or not that would be helpful

if you have a card that isn't working can you follow these directions, its all perfectly safe and very simple!
1, download http://crystalmark.info/redirect.php?product=CrystalDiskMarkInstaller-en
2, install it then insert your SD card in to a computer
3, run Crystalmark, you will se 3 drop down selection boxes above the words "write" and "read" change them to the following
5 - 100 - SDcard drive letter
4, hit the "ALL" button on the left, do not operate the computer whilst this is running.
5, once its finished click "file" then "save" save it some place safe
6, open that txt file you just saved and post the results here, it will look like this

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 5.1.2 x64 (C) 2007-2016 hiyohiyo
                           Crystal Dew World : http://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

   Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) :    89.998 MB/s
  Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) :    24.297 MB/s
  Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) :     5.278 MB/s [  1288.6 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) :     1.603 MB/s [   391.4 IOPS]
         Sequential Read (T= 1) :    89.341 MB/s
        Sequential Write (T= 1) :    35.864 MB/s
   Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) :     4.411 MB/s [  1076.9 IOPS]
  Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) :     1.262 MB/s [   308.1 IOPS]

  Test : 100 MiB [D: 10.7% (6.4/60.0 GiB)] (x5)  [Interval=5 sec]
  Date : 2016/08/08 18:33:06
    OS : Windows 10 Professional [10.0 Build 14393] (x64)

 

[Adplaya]

"[Caution] A dash cam's SD card is expendable. The warranty period lasts for six months. We also assure that dash cam only work properly when you use genuine THINKWARE SD card."

Just incase anyone was wondering what Thinkware thinks about 3rd party accessories. Bought my genuine card yesterday.

 

[Dee_82]

its not about what they think of 3rd party accessories, its about what works, all SD cards have a limited number of read write operations, SD cards don't have the facility that SSDs have to rebalance the usage across the whole chip meaning some areas are hit much harder than other areas.

we also know SD cards have different characteristics which can stop the camera using the SD card and potentially effect the camera from working at all.

interestingly their 6 month warranty technically falls short of UK and EU consumer law, they have to guarantee their cards for a period of 12 months
(UK) or 24 months (EU) however the two related sections are these (applies to both UK and EU)

You must repair or replace an item if a customer returns it within 6 months - unless you can prove it wasn’t faulty when they bought it.
You can ask a customer to prove an item was faulty when they bought it if they ask for a repair or replacement after 6 months

so technically whilst its covered, you need to prove it was faulty before they have to honour it, which is effectively impossible, you could argue that since thinkware themselves only give it a 6 month life time then that is justification that it was sold faulty, in the sense it was sold with for knowledge that it would die 6 months later

 

[monopole]

There you go Dee, my previous (and still working flawlessly) Transcend Ultimate 633x 64Gb Micro SDHC

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 5.1.2 x64 (C) 2007-2016 hiyohiyo
  Crystal Dew World : http://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes
  
  Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) :           93.441 MB/s
  Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) :          48.893 MB/s
  Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) :           7.478 MB/s [  1825.7 IOPS]
 Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) :           1.491 MB/s [  364.0 IOPS]
  Sequential Read (T= 1) :                 90.805 MB/s
  Sequential Write (T= 1) :                51.380 MB/s
  Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) :            6.083 MB/s [  1485.1 IOPS]
  Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) :           1.319 MB/s [  322.0 IOPS]

  Test : 100 MiB [E: 8.5% (5.1/60.3 GiB)] (x5)  [Interval=5 sec]
  Date : 2016/08/10 16:26:12
  OS : Windows 10  [10.0 Build 10586] (x64)

I'll do the 128Gb Lexar another time...

 

[Dee_82]

that card vastly exceeds all of the thinkware specs

So from the data I have, you shouldn't see a problem with that card, unless there is some physical degradation which prevents the card from working correctly..... or there are other forces at work which we have no visibility of!

cheers for that.

if I get a good number of returns on this ill publish the full findings, a dozen cards isn't exactly a large sample to base a conclusion on but its appears to hold true so far!

 

[Dee_82]

what would be interesting is if we can get some people with the same card to see if the results are consistent.

 

[Andy Georgiou]

Hi, I also have issues with either memory error or random camera restarts, I can understand that the camera needs to report a memory error when it detects this but cannot understand why the firmware restarts the camera.
Any thoughts on this?
I have tried a few memory cards, latest a brand new EVO+ 64GB, worked fine for a couple of hours but now also random restarts (no memory error reports) every hour or so of driving.
Will try to reformat on a PC.

On a separate issue How come my high power super PC takes 10's of minutes to format but the webcam takes 2 seconds or so? Does it really format the sd card?

 

[Dee_82]

sometimes it really does feel like I'm slamming my head against a brick wall.

The camera uses the memory card as some kind of scratch disk / page file / swap file or whatever you want to call it, the incompatible memory card you are using is causing a problem that the camera is unable to cope with thus it throws up an error and restarts, the device restarts probably because whatever it was doing to the SD card when it was unable to carry out its work was important enough to cause a terminal problem OR as a safety precaution, rather than continue to work on a card that isn't working it stops all processes and restarts to prevent damage.

Cameras have been known to be damaged because of incompatible cards and require reflashing the firmware to help resolve!

Formatting can be one of two things, your high end power PC will format a card just as quick as the camera will if you select quick format. quick format will just delete the FAT / MBR, a full format will erase each sector one by one.

think of the FAT as a map, if I delete the map then no one can locate the towns and villages but they still exist if your lucky enough to find them, a full format will not only delete the map but it will also nuke the towns for good measure.

if you want to be secure, you use a full format, for most people a quick format is more than enough

 

[jokiin]

The camera uses the memory card as some kind of scratch disk / page file / swap file or whatever you want to call it

it shouldn't be, any pre buffer etc is done is RAM before writing to card

 

[Dee_82]

The reading back is causing the problems, or is at least apart of the problem, something is getting read back from the card which is what appears to be causing the memory card error.

im basing that off the only difference between a working and non working card.

we know cards can write at blistering speeds, both sequential and random, we know that all working cards have good random reading speeds and that all known "faulty" cards are significantly slower reading.

It might be nothing but when the data says that the only difference between two cards is the reading then it should be related to a read operation

We also know from thinkware that the camera itself can be damaged (software) from an incompatible card, how else can an SD card affect the camera if its not reading back on to the camera?

this is all assumptions but its all I have to work with, thinkware aren't much help!

 

[jokiin]

the camera will manage files on the card, delete for recycling, lock files etc while it is also writing so there is read and write operations going on, they're not particularly intense though

 

[Dee_82]

the camera will manage files on the card, delete for recycling, lock files etc while it is also writing so there is read and write operations going on, they're not particularly intense though

I'm not sure what else it can be but I agree, it shouldn't be a problem but whatever they are doing is odd. we had the same problem with porting windows phone 7 on to the HTC Touch HD2, the SD card was used by Windows phone 7 in a similar manor to prefetch works.

 

[egonvdv]

I have also tried formatting via the Thinkware Dashcam Viewer, but that says that it cannot format the card as it is being used by Dash Cam Viewer or another program. A sort of catch 22 situation.

A little late to the party I guess, but stumbled upon your post while looking for something else;

in the viewer click the format button. another window opens. now close the viewer and in the new window format the card.

EDIT: IN THE LATEST SOFTWARE VERSION TEH FORMAT WORKS WITHOUT DOING
THE ABOVE "TRICK".

 

[aptones]

@Dee_82 here's the Crystal Disk Mark results from a Samsung EVO 64GB (MicroSDXC UHS-I Grade 1 Class 10):

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 5.2.0 x64 (C) 2007-2016 hiyohiyo
Crystal Dew World : http://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 19.136 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 17.825 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 6.177 MB/s [ 1508.1 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 3.161 MB/s [ 771.7 IOPS]
Sequential Read (T= 1) : 19.082 MB/s
Sequential Write (T= 1) : 19.293 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 5.656 MB/s [ 1380.9 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 3.577 MB/s [ 873.3 IOPS]

Test : 100 MiB [D: 0.0% (0.0/59.6 GiB)] (x5) [Interval=5 sec]
Date : 2016/12/06 12:00:40
OS : Windows 10 Professional [10.0 Build 10586] (x64)


It worked for a while when I bought it..... then after a few firmware upgrades (first to 1.00.15, then to 1.00.22 and now 1.00.24) it just keeps causing the F750 to reboot or generates the "Memory Card Error"....
Bit weird given the random read is 6MB/s which is in the mentioned range....


I've just put in an order for a Toshiba Exceria M302 128GB which has a far greater read/write speed than the Samsung.... will post up those results when i get the card!

 

[Andy Georgiou]

I have the same issues with my dash cam an F750 dual camera system, yet the same cards work fine on my Sony (HDR-TD..) 3D full 2 x HD 1080 streams to SD card camcorder.
I do really hope that someone from Thinkware reads these threads.
I did post relating to this issue hoping for a solution some time ago but received a reply that was neither technically correct nor from knowledgeable persons.

As a veteran engineer with decades of experience in both hardware and firmware / software design I think that the fault lies with the camera system itself.

Whoever had their PC/Laptop or security cctv systems restart because the memory card or USB stick is faulty, these serial buses if designed correctly should be able to cope with even worst case scenarios where even power lines are shorted.

And yes when I designed simple animatronics I did take the simple solution of restarting the systems on errors, but when I was designing fail safe systems such as medical life support devices you wouldn't dream of having the device restart because of an SD or USB stick error, neither do you have firmware becoming corrupted by faulty external memory devices if the firmware resides inside the device as is the case with Thinkware.

In my long experience, electronic device restarts commonly happen on devices with week EMC immunity, as the Thinkware dual camera system has long connecting cables between power and between the rear and front camera, it needs some serious EMC immunity designed into the system, week EMC immunity can also result in memory corruption in automotive devices due to the plethora of interfering signals emitted by the in car systems, so the question then becomes does anyone with these issues have access to EMC test house or EMC test equipment? (Although again to re-iterate memory corruption should not result in system restart)

I do have access, but do not have the spare £000's needed to test the installed system!

SD cards are accessed via a serial bus similar to USB, so the camera re-starting is unacceptable behaviour, especially when the only reason of buying these dash cams is to have evidence in case of an accident, the dashcam re-starting does not inspire confidence and neither provides an acceptable fit for function behaviour. How can we be re assured that the camera will not be in a re-start state when an accident or incident happens?

Having been heavily involved in design and specifying Solid State Memory one of the issues is corruption of neighbouring cells caused by physically erasing and writing to the same locations e.g. FAT. Typically safe re-writes vary between 200 to 1000 times before information in neighbouring cells becomes corrupted.

So, quick formatting does not clear the issue but makes it worse as it adds more erase re-writes to the same FAT locations, I suspect what it really does is defrag the memory map, for longevity the card needs to have all physical locations erased periodically, a process not provided by a quick format operation. This currently poses other issues, as once all cells are erased the PC will not recognise the card and would need long winded operations to get it recognised and formatted.
I have security cameras using SD cards, HD camcorders (2 x HD 1080 streams plus GPS info plus meta data using SD cards and never had an SD card error or the camcorder restarting, etc.

So all I can say is PLEASE Thinkware get some decent designers (hardware and software) and sort out your product, it is a great product and is a shame to have such a simple issue ruin it's reputation. See how many users have this issue in this thread and thousands who have not found this thread or cannot be bothered to complain.

I will be happier to have the odd frame dropped rather than the system restart.