Vegas shooting - Taxi Cab View

[Dashmellow]

I understand, maybe share, the sentiment that regular cops shouldn't have held back, but it's a bit like firefighting - you assess the situation, decide on the correct course of action (probably all of that rehearsed 100s of times) then you wait until you've got the right equipment/people to do the job.

There was also the possibility that the service cart parked just outside the door (with an obvious wire under a plate and then running under the door) was booby trapped.

 

[Sunny]

While I don't want to see cops die, the bottom line is that they chose a dangerous job and the people have every right to expect them to take personal risks to protect the innocent. The same millionth chance that a gun owner went bonkers is the same millionth chance that he killed himself before some policemen who actually did their job confronted the situation directly, albeit an hour later. And this is exactly why I am a gun owner- I know that I can't count on the police to protect me so I'm ready to do that for myself.
If only swat can deal with deadly confrontations then fire the useless cops we're not being protected by now and replace then all with swat teams.
Phil

That's what we expect (those who swore to protect to protect us by taking risks) but looks like they are instructed/trained only to protect people against criminals who have smaller guns than what they carry or only when they have no risk of injury or death.
Anytime a criminal has bigger guns than theirs, they are like, we're gonna wait it out until we have bigger guns. Why risk our lives?
City/PD is really afraid to lose a cop as they have invested a lot more on them and are considered more valuable than a civilian so when it's risky, let civilians die until they have backup of bigger arsenals.
The doctor who went to treat victims and got shot (injured, could have died), the guy who dragged victims to safety and went back to get more etc... , who were unarmed civilians, are much greater and braver persons than some of those scared cops who held back wearing cop uniform and loaded with firearms.

I'd like to hear cops conversation from 10:12 till 11:20 to get a feel of what they were doing besides just waiting as the audio released has audio from before they get to the room and after swat blew the door.

 

[Sunny]

There was also the possibility that the service cart parked just outside the door (with an obvious wire under a plate and then running under the door) was booby trapped.

Yes, they were afraid and would have been perfectly fine if shooter was the only concern.
Here, the shooter was still shooting at people so waiting doing nothing probably cost many citizens their lives as he still was shooting 5 more minutes from the time when cops got outside that room.
We don't have numbers of how many died during initial shootings vs final shootings.

In this event cops did nothing more than civilians by telling get down, run, go that way and tending to victims.
Basically, having cops did nothing here, not necessary blaming cops at the venue as the shooter was far away that they could do nothing about but the cops who actually went in front of the shooter's room, they could have done more to save lives.

 

[Dashmellow]

Yes, they were afraid and would have been perfectly fine if shooter was the only concern.
Here, the shooter was still shooting at people so waiting doing nothing probably cost many citizens their lives as he still was shooting 5 more minutes from the time when cops got outside that room.

In this event cops did nothing more than civilians by telling get down, run, go that way and tending to victims.
Basically, having cops did nothing here, not necessary blaming cops at the venue as the shooter was far away that they could do nothing about but the cops who actually went in front of the shooter's room, they could have done more to save lives.

How do we know what the cops on the scene did or did not really do? Did they have vests or any other appropriate equipment to mount an assault on an obviously heavily armed assailant with multiple automatic weapons and other unidentified ones. It's one thing to be heroic and it's another to be suicidal. And the wall next to the doorway is riddled with bullet holes.

I'm sorry Sunny but you sound like an armchair hero blustering with Monday morning quarterback bravado yet one wonders how you might have handled yourself in that situation.

 

[jokiin]

200 rounds fired through the door out toward the hallway, I'm sure their protective cotton uniforms would have put them at ease

best to review the timeline reports also as they said by the time he was firing back into the hallway he had already stopped shooting out the window

 

[Sunny]

How do we know what the cops on the scene did or did not really do? Did they have vests or any other appropriate equipment to mount an assault on an obviously heavily armed assailant with multiple automatic weapons and other unidentified ones. It's one thing to be heroic and it's another to be suicidal. And the wall next to the doorway is riddled with bullet holes.

I'm sorry Sunny but you sound like an armchair hero blustering with Monday morning quarterback bravado yet one wonders how you might have handled yourself in that situation.

Yes, being armchair hero driven by anger.

And frustration that 100's of LEO can't do **** against one criminal to save citizens lives.
There goes our hope.

 

[Sabe]

It's very easy to be clever afterwards when all events and persons and actions are clear.
Try to remember that this is not a scripted hollywood movie, police and bystanders have to act upon with very little facts they got right now when it's happening, when everything is unknown.

 

[DT MI]

200 rounds fired through the door out toward the hallway, I'm sure their protective cotton uniforms would have put them at ease

best to review the timeline reports also as they said by the time he was firing back into the hallway he had already stopped shooting out the window

Do you really think you can change bias based opinion with actual facts? What are you, an optimist?

 

[SawMaster]

On a battlefield, both heroes and fools will leave their defenses and move forward when ordered to do so. The difference is that the hero knows in his heart that he may not survive it but does it anyway.

I'm with Sunny on this. At least a few of the Cops at the room should have been thinking "I just can't stand here and let this nutcase keep killing my people- I have to stop them even if it might kill me." but apparently not one of them had that in their heart. If all that the Cops are going to do with their guns is point them at people who forgot to use their turn signal and to shoot unarmed people who are deaf then they should not have guns because they are not using them correctly.

If the door in question is he one shown in the pics, that's not 200 rounds gone through it, probably not even 20. It's also the 'fixed' door of the pair, not the one with the handle you'd open first to go through there. The door wasn't in that position during the action; look at the holes and you see some where the other door wasn't even nicked where it should have been if it had been that way during the shooting. And yes, the cart could have been rigged, but in that hotel was sure to be a mirror to let the Cops look around the corner without exposing themselves, a cellphone cam which every Cop on the scene had could have been used similarly, another cart could have been quickly shoved into it from around the corner to upset it's position and test for traps, a painter's pole used from the maintenance room to shift it from where it was, or a blanket thrown over it once they saw in that mirror or phone screen that there was a camera on the cart.

Something could have been done, but instead the Cops did absolutely nothing except to call for SWAT because that's what they are trained to do. And that is where the point of failure begins. Their improper training is endemic in the system and it's wrongness is what lets numerous innocents get killed and allows nutcases to kill for 5 more minutes when there are better ways for things to be done. We must demand that their trainers be relieved of duty and be replaced with sane intelligent people who understand that being a Cop is an inherently risky business and that sometimes they are going to have to greatly risk their own lives for the good of the people whom it is their duty to protect, for that is their job- their job is not to save Cop's lives only- and the people have every right to expect them to do it to the best of their ability.

I'm unwatching this thread again as things like this only serve to anger me and I'd rather not see constant reminders of what my once great Nation has become in my lifetime. I'll read the thread only when I can handle it.

Phil

 

[Dashmellow]

Yes, being armchair hero driven by anger.

And frustration that 100's of LEO can't do **** against one criminal to save citizens lives.
There goes our hope.

I understand. We're all angry about this senseless tragedy.

 

[Dashmellow]

On a battlefield, both heroes and fools will leave their defenses and move forward when ordered to do so. The difference is that the hero knows in his heart that he may not survive it but does it anyway.

I'm with Sunny on this. At least a few of the Cops at the room should have been thinking "I just can't stand here and let this nutcase keep killing my people- I have to stop them even if it might kill me." but apparently not one of them had that in their heart. If all that the Cops are going to do with their guns is point them at people who forgot to use their turn signal and to shoot unarmed people who are deaf then they should not have guns because they are not using them correctly.

If the door in question is he one shown in the pics, that's not 200 rounds gone through it, probably not even 20. It's also the 'fixed' door of the pair, not the one with the handle you'd open first to go through there. The door wasn't in that position during the action; look at the holes and you see some where the other door wasn't even nicked where it should have been if it had been that way during the shooting. And yes, the cart could have been rigged, but in that hotel was sure to be a mirror to let the Cops look around the corner without exposing themselves, a cellphone cam which every Cop on the scene had could have been used similarly, another cart could have been quickly shoved into it from around the corner to upset it's position and test for traps, a painter's pole used from the maintenance room to shift it from where it was, or a blanket thrown over it once they saw in that mirror or phone screen that there was a camera on the cart.

Something could have been done, but instead the Cops did absolutely nothing except to call for SWAT because that's what they are trained to do. And that is where the point of failure begins. Their improper training is endemic in the system and it's wrongness is what lets numerous innocents get killed and allows nutcases to kill for 5 more minutes when there are better ways for things to be done. We must demand that their trainers be relieved of duty and be replaced with sane intelligent people who understand that being a Cop is an inherently risky business and that sometimes they are going to have to greatly risk their own lives for the good of the people whom it is their duty to protect, for that is their job- their job is not to save Cop's lives only- and the people have every right to expect them to do it to the best of their ability.

I'm unwatching this thread again as things like this only serve to anger me and I'd rather not see constant reminders of what my once great Nation has become in my lifetime. I'll read the thread only when I can handle it.

Phil

I think the best the cops could have done in this situation was distract the shooter from firing out the window any further until the cavalry arrived. Perhaps that's what they did? We just don't know what they did or didn't do. Some of the things you are suggesting here seem questionable to me such as pushing another service cart into the one in front of the door. Sounds good in theory and we've all seen that sort of thing in the movies. But if you see wires coming out of a cart like that which are running under the door you could end up triggering an explosion of unknown magnitude possibly causing an even greater tragedy. And as it turned out the guy had 50 pounds of explosives in the room.

 

[jokiin]

And as it turned out the guy had 50 pounds of explosives in the room.

reports said it was in his car rather than the room, not that they were to know, I would think that either way 9 minutes of automatic weapon fire would seem like a war zone and not the type of thing that any of the first responders were ever trained for, all easy to analyse in hindsight but at that point they had no idea what they were dealing with

 

[Sunny]

On a battlefield, both heroes and fools will leave their defenses and move forward when ordered to do so. The difference is that the hero knows in his heart that he may not survive it but does it anyway.

I'm with Sunny on this. At least a few of the Cops at the room should have been thinking "I just can't stand here and let this nutcase keep killing my people- I have to stop them even if it might kill me." but apparently not one of them had that in their heart. ...

Hope they release audio of that hour of waiting to know what was happening.
I think the difference between army and police is exactly this.
Army follows order to fight and it costs many their lives but that's the only way to win and they know that when they sign up for the job.
Cops are trained/ordered to maintain law and order without risking their lives so fighting was out of the scope.

Here, when cops pull over someone at night, most of the time, cops wait for back up cops before exiting the vehicle without even knowing whether driver is 80 years old lady or armed criminal to make sure they don't have risk to their lives and this situation was way more dangerous than a traffic stop but lets hope they at least distracted the shooter.

I think shooter killed himself thinking the cops would enter the room to kill/capture him so in a way, just showing up there stopped the carnage earlier.
Had he known they were just waiting, he would have continued the hell fire.

 

[Dashmellow]

10:05pm: First shots fired by the suspect. This was seen on closed-circuit television from the concert venue.

10:12pm: First two officers arrive on the 31st floor and announce the gunfire is coming from directly above them.

10:15pm: The last shots are fired from the suspect per body worn camera.

10:17pm: The first two officers arrive on the 32nd floor.

10:18pm: Security officer tells the LVMPD officers he was shot (through the door) and gives them the exact location of the suspect’s room.

10:26-10:30pm: Eight additional officers arrived on the 32nd floor and began to move systematically down the hallway, clearing every room and looking for any injured people. They move this way because they no longer hear the gunfire of an active shooter situation.

10:55pm: Eight officers arrive in the stairwell at the opposite end of the hallway nearest to the suspect’s room.

11:20pm: The first breach was set off and officers entered the room. They observed the suspect down on the ground and also saw a second door that could not be accessed from their position.

11:27pm: The second breach was set off allowing officers to access the second room. Officers quickly realized there was no one else in the rooms and announced over the radio that the suspect was down.

 

[Sunny]

10:26-10:30pm: Eight additional officers arrived on the 32nd floor and began to move systematically down the hallway, clearing every room and looking for any injured people. They move this way because they no longer hear the gunfire of an active shooter situation.

Okay, not as bad of a situation after 10:15 as I thought but still not hearing gunfire was not a guarantee that shooter was dead.
Glad he killed himself but he could very well have been on a coffee break or setting up more weapons during that time when cops didn't hear gunfire.
There was no stopping if he were not dead and started shooting after 10:30.
I guess lvpd community is also pretty frustrated from their inability to do anything in this incident.

Airplanes' ****pits were secured only after 911.
Street events like Boston marathon have roadblocks only after Nice attack.
Lvpd said they never thought someone would shoot from hotel.
Do the criminals have to do things like these so leo knows what kinds of security needed in the future?
This is bad.

 

[Sabe]

Cops are trained/ordered to maintain law and order without risking their lives so fighting was out of the scope.

There is hard truth about training.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/28/us/jobs-training-police-trnd/index.html

 

[kamkar]

I have been standing in front of a sawed off shotgun with 20 other people, granted only loaded with bird shot but within 3 -4 M that can still make a mess.
Eventually the guy was overpowered and got his ass severely kicked, and sadly just in front of his mothers apartment with her watching.
The guy had mental problems compounded by a massive drug use in court he got 1.5 years of prison for that and some other things on his account.
I fully understand cops being somewhat apprehensive about engaging hero mode.

Last 24 hour here.
One guy was driven to hospital by his brother ( a full fledged biker gang member ), but died from his gunshot wound to the chest shortly after arriving at hospital.
3 guys at MC Donald's got into a stand off, the 2 guys later found the 1 guy at a gas station and ran him over with a car killing him at once.
1 biker club house was sprayed with gunfire in the middle of the town Maribo, the satuaday ( or how ever that biker gang spell their name ) club house got shut down by cops for some days.

 

[DT MI]

...
Do the criminals have to do things like these so leo knows what kinds of security needed in the future?
This is bad.

I'm sure they would be very willing to learn how you're able to determine random future events.

 

[country_hick]

The only difference to the USA's guns is that our vehicles are useful devices while the usefulness of the USA's machine guns is questionable!

The U.S. requires a hard to get expensive stamp to have an actual machine gun.

An assault rifle only looks different from a typical semi-automatic rifle.
When the government goes to far and armed insurrection is the only solution every country will recognize the need for the populace to have arms that can have an impact on the out of control government.

That has been seen numerous times in multiple countries over time. Why do you think they want to outlaw guns?

 

[country_hick]

The "sad" truth of the matter is that the "people of the USA" are not the ones to have chosen widespread availability of assault weapons.Sadly, our government is now almost entirely controlled by special interests to the detriment of our nation, and it's not just guns.

Donald Trump Jr. who characterizes the use of silencers as a "health issue" because loud gunfire can cause hearing loss.

Guns have been around for a long time in this country but something has changed. Time was, - this one's good for ducks and this one's good for target and this one's good for deer and this one's good for police work. Our founding fathers wrote our Constitution at a time when the highest technology in firearms was the flintlock rifle. They could not possibly conceive of a rifle that could discharge 500-650 high powered rounds per minute.

Our government does appear to work for special interests of all types. The NRA is supported by millions of ordinary people who only want their rights to remain with them. Most special interests only want to gain control or make bigger profits.

I tend to wear earplugs when shooting .22's. The decibels created by gunfire is a legitimate health hazard. Many have lost some of their hearing ability because of the noise coming from gunfire.