A119 PRO?!?

[c4rc4m]

yes I know it's physically larger, it's still not large enough to support larger pixels though, they're still 30% smaller pixels than the IMX291 uses, it needs to be larger still to support larger pixels, other sensors in the range do have what is needed

I'm struggling to find any tbh. The larger ones, still don't have the same pixel size and are only around 1/10th as sensitive as the 291. The most sensitive 4K sensor appears to be the 334.

It's as Nigel said, there's more in play here than just pure pixel size.

Sensitvities appear to be, if I reading this on a like for like basis:

291 - 2000mv

334 - 2300mv

Others @ 200-280mv

 

[jokiin]

there are other models in larger format

 

[c4rc4m]

there are other models in larger format

I know but they only have 1/10th the sensitivity from the spec sheet I've seen. Here's the full list of Sony Sensors for Surveillance from the google search I did: https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor0/products/cmos.html

If you take a look at the individual product sheets for 4K sensors, you'll find the older larger sensors are less sensitive than the 334 / 335.

It's funny how they separate sensors out for surveillance, cameras and mobiles though. You'd have thought there was a crossover. I'm pretty sure (although it is am intelligent guess), the Panasonic Lumix GH4 uses the IMX159 processor and the new GH5 the IMX269, just comparing the few specs I can see (from the camera (product sheet). The GH4 / 5 are 2 of the best low light cameras available although the Sony A7S II is my personal favourite. However, I'm pretty sure the A7S II is using an inhouse sensor. ie one reserved for Sony product lines only.

This does raise some questions for me though:

1. Why can't a camera sensor be used in a video surveillance camera - after all the video from the top DSLR's rivals some of the best dedicated video cameras these days? Surely a sensor is a sensor and all the bells and whistles seen on DSLR's come from the additional add on circuitry and not the sensor itself (I wouldn't know for definite as I'm an amateur not an expert).

2. If I'm right and the IMX159 is the sensor used in the GH4, then surely now the GH5 is released, the IMX159 will be falling in price, and even if it isn't and scheduled maybe for eventual obsolescence, couldn't Sony be persuaded to make this available for surveillance use at a reasonable price?

3. Would the lens be reasonable in price to enable a 4/3rds sensor to be fitted to a dashcam?

(Apologies to Viofo here as this goes slightly off topic into a more general discussion of sensors).

 

[Mtz]

Not really off topic because Viofo can use one these great sensors in one of their future products if they are brave enough to create something unique on the dashcams market but also enough power to put pressure on Novatek to support IMX334 for example.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[Nigel]

I'm struggling to find any tbh. The larger ones, still don't have the same pixel size and are only around 1/10th as sensitive as the 291.

If you see that much difference in the sensitivity then it is almost certainly measured in a different way, probably deliberately incompatible with the other specs, or there is some reason that you wouldn't use it at the same ISO.

1. Why can't a camera sensor be used in a video surveillance camera - after all the video from the top DSLR's rivals some of the best dedicated video cameras these days? Surely a sensor is a sensor and all the bells and whistles seen on DSLR's come from the additional add on circuitry and not the sensor itself (I wouldn't know for definite as I'm an amateur not an expert).

One of the reasons: The high resolution DSLR sensors are often fitted with strong anti-aliasing filters to avoid moiré and false colours. At pixel level they are often very blurry compared to an IMX 323, but it doesn't matter because they are mainly used for photos in good lighting and have more than enough resolution. They also have to work well with long exposures, maybe 1 hour, and still produce accurate colours and low noise, surveillance sensors only need to work down to 1/30th second for 30fps, they are never used for photos!

There are probably quite a few design differences, a surveillance camera doesn't need accurate colours or shading or particularly low noise, it just needs to capture detail.

 

[Paul Iddon]

Would heat be a factor?

 

[kamkar]

When the IMX291 are so popular i dont understand why no one have used the IMX185, i just love how it perform in my one IP camera, day or night the street below my living room window are a blaze of color thanks to the nearby streetlight.
A streetlight that dont do much for many other cameras i have aimed down there at night.

 

[Nigel]

When the IMX291 are so popular i dont understand why no one have used the IMX185, i just love how it perform in my one IP camera, day or night the street below my living room window are a blaze of color thanks to the nearby streetlight.
A streetlight that dont do much for many other cameras i have aimed down there at night.

That one is huge!

IMX 185 = 100.0%
IMX 291 = 59.8%
IMX 334 = 28.4%
IMX 335 = 28.4%
IMX 317 = 18.7%

Actually it is just slightly smaller than the IMX 334, but being a 1080 sensor only has 1/4 of the pixels.

I think a sensor that size and the big lens required is too big for a 1080 dashcam, presumably people prepared to pay the extra would want a 4K sensor so it would make more sense to use the IMX 334. Also, maybe you don't need all that sensitivity when driving, unless you often drive at night without your lights turned on - would be a good dashcam for the military?

 

[Mtz]

presumably people prepared to pay the extra would want a 4K sensor

BlackVue or Thinkware costs $250-$300 maybe and up to $500 the dual dashcams. In a thread on this forum some user said that is normal to exists complaints for BlackVue dashcams because they are selling so good, more cameras sold, more chances that someone to complain!
So there are people which have no problem to pay $250-$500 for a dashcam with a normal sensor, average to normal video quality and you are afraid that other people will pay $250-$500 for the best dashcam on the earth no matter which sensor is used? Because when some company will have the courage and go much further than all dashcams from the market which all are using same sensors with similar results regarding video quality, with a real big sensor then you can say without any doubt that is the best dashcam in the world.
Lets say that actually the IMX291 is the best Full HD sensor which is already used on few great dashcams and because of that is not easy to say for example if SG96663DC is the best or A119S is the best. The difference between both of them is small because both are using good quality lens, have good firmware developers. But when one manufacturer will enter into the dashcam world with a big CMOS, the rules will change forever. A company like I am talking about, is the DJi in the world of drones. With their innovations and development in the world are just 2 types of drones: DJi and the others, no matter their name.

Sorry for offtopic, waiting for news from A119 Pro.

enjoy,
Mtz

PS: DJi have a model with a 1" CMOS, 20MP on a the Phantom 4 PRO version of their drones. I expect dashcams to have such sensor in next 20-30 years. If DJI will not decide to enter into the dashcam market.

 

[TonyM]

DJi have a model with a 1" CMOS, 20MP on a the Phantom 4 PRO version of their drones. I expect dashcams to have such sensor in next 20-30 years. If DJI will not decide to enter into the dashcam market.

I agree it would not take much effort to remove the camera from the drone and mount it in a car with a similar external power supply.

I wonder what proportion of the $1499 asking price is attributable to the camera?

 

[Mtz]

I think that model is for professionals which making movies is their job so they need such quality to ask more money from the clients. Great quality images is helping them very much and is possible that in only one weekend job to recover the drone cost, so it can not be much for some of them.
I think the Pro costs more $600 than normal version which is still 4K but with a smaller 1/2.3' CMOS.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[Nigel]

PS: DJi have a model with a 1" CMOS, 20MP on a the Phantom 4 PRO version of their drones. I expect dashcams to have such sensor in next 20-30 years. If DJI will not decide to enter into the dashcam market.

That drone actually has 7 image sensors, when our dashcams are only just getting to 2 sensors! 7 sensors on a dashcam would give all round coverage with narrow angle lenses... and since most of them are 3D sensors, they could record the speeds of all the other vehicles giving evidence as to who was going too fast and when they didn't put their brakes on...

 

[TonyM]

That drone actually has 7 image sensors, when our dashcams are only just getting to 2 sensors! 7 sensors on a dashcam would give all round coverage with narrow angle lenses... and since most of them are 3D sensors, they could record the speeds of all the other vehicles giving evidence as to who was going too fast and when they didn't put their brakes on...

Hmmm... Not sure how well some of those other sensors will work from inside the car. But I get the point that the increase in drone popularity is pushing technology in that market faster than we see in our dashcams.

 

[Moon]

I would like a Dash Cam that was nice quality and sells for AU$500-$700 as a base PRO model ... and going up to say AU$1,500 for the Premium model.
They would need to be hidden from view, as once you start getting over AU$300 ... they are becoming worth breaking windshields to steal.
While they are cheap and AU$150 ... you wouldn't think they are enticing enough.
If paying the higher price, I would want a 3 year replacement warranty if there are no local authorised repairers.
Having the more expensive and higher quality Cameras, they are more likely worth repairing rather than being throw aways.

 

[Nigel]

Hmmm... Not sure how well some of those other sensors will work from inside the car. But I get the point that the increase in drone popularity is pushing technology in that market faster than we see in our dashcams.

I don't see why they wouldn't work, they are only monochrome sensors and quite small but they give a decent image, they wouldn't work for their obstacle avoidance function if they didn't have good detail. I don't see why a dashcam has to be colour, and it does reduce the required bitrate to 33%. Being small they don't work well at night.

 

[TonyM]

Back to the A119 Pro...

I wonder whether the Pro will be any better at HDR than the A119? There was a beta FW for the A119 with dual-frame HDR a while ago which combined two exposures at 1080p60 to create a 1080p30 HDR video.

Looking at the AR0521 specs it supports off-chip HDR:

It is designed for both low light and high dynamic range performance, with line interleaved T1/T2 read out to support off chip HDR in an ISP chip.

I don't know if the A119 Pro DSP (Novatek 96660) is capable of using that?

 

[TonyM]

I don't see why they wouldn't work, they are only monochrome sensors and quite small but they give a decent image, they wouldn't work for their obstacle avoidance function if they didn't have good detail. I don't see why a dashcam has to be colour, and it does reduce the required bitrate to 33%. Being small they don't work well at night.

Sorry, I realise you must have been thinking of the 7 sensors being remote from the camera. i.e. around the periphery of the car. For some reason I was thinking they would all be together on a dashcam unit. Yes, having multiple mono cameras around the car is the way that some car manufacturers are offering obstacle avoidance, blind spot warnings etc. They're for sensing the landscape and objects around them, rather than recording video streams.

 

[Nigel]

Back to the A119 Pro...

I wonder whether the Pro will be any better at HDR than the A119? There was a beta FW for the A119 with dual-frame HDR a while ago which combined two exposures at 1080p60 to create a 1080p30 HDR video.

Looking at the AR0521 specs it supports off-chip HDR:

It is designed for both low light and high dynamic range performance, with line interleaved T1/T2 read out to support off chip HDR in an ISP chip.

I don't know if the A119 Pro DSP (Novatek 96660) is capable of using that?

I suspect the A119 doesn't have the processing power to do good HDR at anything more than 1080 resolution, it is not an easy job. Hopefully the next generation of processor will be able to do it - A129?

 

[wasyoingonce2]

I don't see why they wouldn't work, they are only monochrome sensors and quite small but they give a decent image, they wouldn't work for their obstacle avoidance function if they didn't have good detail. I don't see why a dashcam has to be colour, and it does reduce the required bitrate to 33%. Being small they don't work well at night.

Mono is generally 3 times more sensitive to light than colour bayer. The Bayer has matrix printed on the sensor and usually a microlens on top. Soo many sensors on the market these days...so little datasheets.

 

[Nigel]

Mono is generally 3 times more sensitive to light than colour bayer. The Bayer has matrix printed on the sensor and usually a microlens on top. Soo many sensors on the market these days...so little datasheets.

Or even 4x if you don't filter out the IR light.

Mono also doesn't have issues with false colours on fine detail, better for reading plates as well as for obstacle avoidance in drones. I'm sure everyone wants a colour front camera but small mono slave cameras to cover 360 degrees would do a good job.