Dash Cam Reliability

[TonyM]

What I don't like are cams that appear to be functioning normally when they aren't

Indeed, it is possible for a camera to play the startup sound and to flash the LED, yet still not be recording. That kind of error can be found by the user reviewing the card occasionally. Ideally though the camera would be smart enough to know that something is wrong and sound the alert.

 

[jokiin]

Indeed, it is possible for a camera to play the startup sound and to flash the LED, yet still not be recording. That kind of error can be found by the user reviewing the card occasionally. Ideally though the camera would be smart enough to know that something is wrong and sound the alert.

that can happen very easily and not be a fault with the camera at all, fake memory cards with their hacked firmware that fakes the file allocation table tells the cameras it's business as usual even if it's effectively only able to overwrite itself constantly, I don't blame the camera for that though

 

[Dashmellow]

I'm not entirely sure they're related to any topic

At least now I understand why I'm the 'thread starter' for a thread I didn't remember starting!

When you posted your comment "So if station mode is not compatible with parking mode, does it serve any purpose?", I never anticipated that my spontaneous wisecrack that "It sells cameras" would derail the thread the way it did. We can all see how that came about but unless it starts to happen again let's not go there. If there should be further trolling and gratuitous insults we'll deal with that when the time comes.

This is actually the thread I had intended to start quite some time ago, only this wasn't how I intended to go about launching it, but, hey, it is what it is. Image quality is certainly part of if but my primary concern is that is that one shouldn't have to constantly worry that you may not be reliably capturing footage or sound.

The simple fact is that there is a lot of truth in the notion that dash cam manufacturers often focus on adding bells and whistles to cameras to increase sales when many of these cameras have known problems and flaws that remain unresolved, sometimes permanently. In many ways, it is all about sales in a highly competitive market with reliability and performance as a secondary concern. I would have given this thread a different title.

And let's be clear, the problem goes far beyond manufacturers adding new features before they've resolved existing problems.

Compared with typical cameras, even inexpensive point and shoot and cam-corders dash cams are gadgets. By that I mean that dash cams are built more like your average GameBoy than a "real" camera in that they are constructed with a circuit board board screwed into molded-in stand-offs in a "cheap" two part plastic shell with some plastic buttons, a lens and usually a screen. Ultimately, dash cams should be built to the standard of modern CCTV cams which are built on a solid metal chassis and often set inside a cast aluminum housing that acts as a heat sink and is highly vandal resistant, waterproof and designs to run 24/7 for months and years on end in the harshest of conditions. Many of today's CCTV cams happen to use the same chipsets and lenses as dash cam. In fact, the dash cam industry originally started by when someone got the idea to use re-purpose existing off the shelf M12 CCTV lenses and parts,

After 11 years of dash cam ownership and extensive experience with numerous cameras I've come to the undeniable conclusion that there is no other category of consumer electronic product that is as inherently trouble prone or unreliable. There is no other category of consumer electronic product where the user is more likely to experience a wide array of vexing experiences, hassles, failures, glitches and disappointments that require troubleshooting and constant vigilance to assure that the device is performing its job.

DashCamTalk is an internet forum where, like many other forums on the internet dedicated to a particular product category, people come to learn about, discuss and get help with issues and problems they may encounter. Yet, as a lifelong gadget freak, pro photographer, techie and consumer electronics buyer and twenty plus year veteran of similar internet forums, I couldn't help but notice in my eight years as a member here, the absolute torrent of complaints, hassles, failures, disappointments, problems and pleas for help that members report on an ongoing daily basis.

And with rare exception this matches my own personal experience over these last 11 years of dash cam ownership. Even when things are operating fairly well for a period of time, I never leave my driveway without checking to confirm that all 5 of the cameras in my vehicle are up and running before I drive off. And I'm in the long time habit of continually checking my 5 cameras during my journeys to make sure they're still operating. Too many times over the years I've discovered after the fact that something went wrong and my camera wasn't running when I thought it was. And I know many other experienced long dash cam owners who do the same things. Of course, aside from that there's always the need to keep checking your memory cards when you get home to ensure that your camera was indeed recording your journey properly. It shouldn't be like that. With my CCTV camera system whenever I check the footage it is all there, 24/7.

Never have I owned a product where failures are to be expected and ongoing troubleshooting is the norm, not the exception.

So, awhile ago, I started capturing little screen grabs of some of the problems being reported and putting them in a folder on my computer. i didn't necessarily have a goal in mind, I was basically casually looking at trends and frequency of the reported issues. Somehow, it eventually turned into the graphic you see below and this represents only a sampling of the innumerable posts of this nature seen on DCT on any given day.

I mean, I get it. This is a product forum and people tend to visit internet forums to seek help or complain when something goes wrong more than when things are going well. But NEVER with any other consumer electronic product category have I ever seen (or personally experienced) the magnitude and range of technical problems, product failures and cries for help than I've seen here on DashCamTalk.

 

[SawMaster]

I can't and don't expect a cam to be able to detect and notify me of all problems, but it's been nice to have some cams which do have card fault notification versus the older ones which did not.

I still have one side-cam in use which boots with "SD Card error" on the screen every few weeks, and if you don't catch it before the screensaver activates and format the card, it will appear to be functioning normally, but not actually recording I have to turn my head and look at it on every drive so it's going away soon.

Phil

 

[HonestReview]

I'm happy enough with cams that only have a visual indicator of functioning, though I do like sound too. The one exception was my K2S, which with it's remoted processor unit could be mounted out-of-sight, therefore needing sound and not sight; good it has both. I think that's all you really need, but I do like having the rest What I don't like are cams that appear to be functioning normally when they aren't

Phil

The auditory nature of the A139 is pretty good. Unless of course, your unit overheats and commits suicide like mine. Then it just overheats, shuts down, or freezes until the power is plugged.

Having an LCD probably generates more heat, but I do like my A129 Duo a heck of a lot. That camera will run in all inclement conditions. Never a worry there with firmware version 1.5 about reliability.

 

[HonestReview]

I can't and don't expect a cam to be able to detect and notify me of all problems, but it's been nice to have some cams which do have card fault notification versus the older ones which did not.

I still have one side-cam in use which boots with "SD Card error" on the screen every few weeks, and if you don't catch it before the screensaver activates and format the card, it will appear to be functioning normally, but not actually recording I have to turn my head and look at it on every drive so it's going away soon.

Phil

Moral of the story is to do periodic checks and make sure the camera is recording. Occasional formats to the SD card are also recommended, as over time, sd cards can develop bad sectors.

For good measure, I always run two dash cameras in my car now. A fail safe in the event one camera were to malfunction.

Never want to be int he position of finding that you need proof and that proof is lacking due to a malfunction.

 

[TonyM]

For good measure, I always run two dash cameras in my car now. A fail safe in the event one camera were to malfunction.

I do the same, as do quite a few others here, but to echo the point @Dashmellow is making - is this acceptable? Redundancy is fine, but is it sustainable? Are they running off the same power supply, or should we run two of those as well?

Why should we feel the need to pay twice for dashcams because we don't trust a single one to work 100% of the time?


I understand that it's not always the dashcam that is at fault when a user cannot locate a recording of a critical event.
- Poor choice of power supply can affect dashcam operations
- Poor choice of memory card can also affect dashcam operations
-> Some of the better manufacturers mitigate these problems by bundling the dashcam with a dedicated power supply and/or an approved memory card

 

[Dashmellow]

I do the same, as do quite a few others here, but to echo the point @Dashmellow is making - is this acceptable?

EXACTLY! How many products do we have in our lives where we feel the need to have a second one running simultaneously because we live in chronic fear that the first one won't perform its job when needed.

And we are talking here about cameras that often can cost as much as $200-$300 dollars each!

 

[HonestReview]

I do the same, as do quite a few others here, but to echo the point @Dashmellow is making - is this acceptable? Redundancy is fine, but is it sustainable? Are they running off the same power supply, or should we run two of those as well?

Why should we feel the need to pay twice for dashcams because we don't trust a single one to work 100% of the time?


I understand that it's not always the dashcam that is at fault when a user cannot locate a recording of a critical event.
- Poor choice of power supply can affect dashcam operations
- Poor choice of memory card can also affect dashcam operations
-> Some of the better manufacturers mitigate these problems by bundling the dashcam with a dedicated power supply and/or an approved memory card

Why do people run raid on hard drives? Because equipment (hard drives) fails at some point. Whether the failure is related to a manufacturer defect or long term usage, it's almost a certainty that technology won't last forever. No one wants to be in the position of having their camera fail at a critical moment. Which by applying Murphy's law, will be when you need the video most.

To put it in other terms. I had an SD card that I had tons of vacation photos on. Well like an idiot, I didn't make a copy and these SD cards proved to be junk. I lost vacation photos, unless I want to pay good money for someone to read from the chip itself and try to recover.

Thus, running two Dash Camera's is recommended even if you are using a very reliable model (A129 Duo) or similar product with a proven track record. Having a "backup" will ensure you aren't ever in a precarious situation where the needed video is absent due to Memory Card Error, Camera Fault, User Error, etc. Two is always better than one!

 

[Dashmellow]

@HonestReview, you failed to mention that your first A129 Duo needed to be replaced and you initially complained about issues with your second one. How long have you had the A129 Duo that you are now designating it as reliable? Most every product I own that costs what the A129 Duo costs or the A139 costs go for years trouble free. With dash cams concluding that a camera is "reliable" after only months is not realistic. You are also waiting for your A139 replacement too, no?

Raid hard drives are a different breed of cat. Backing up massive amounts of data because equipment might fail "at some point" is not the same as having a primary product that is well known for often failing right out of the starting gate or shortly thereafter. Memory cards are a separate issue from dash cam hardware, just as hard drives and raid hard drives are essentially a separate issue from the computers themselves. You are redundantly backing up data, not running a duplicate computer. A closer analogy might be simultaneously running two computers side by side because you fear that one of them will crash or go up in smoke at any moment.

 

[Dashmellow]

Hey BTW, I don't know how many of you guys looked closely at all the different reports of problems in my "poster" but I have a few personal favorite complaints.

1. "Making sounds like a quacking duck!" (wins award for best post )
2. "Strange occurance" (runner up)
3. "Not AGAin - it is beeping!" (honorable mention)
4. "About to return this thing" (been there)
5. "Help!" (best newbie post)

 

[DAP]

By that I mean that dash cams are built more like your average GameBoy than a "real" camera in that they are constructed with a circuit board board screwed into molded-in stand-offs in a "cheap" two part plastic shell with some plastic buttons, a lens and usually a screen. Ultimately, dash cams should be built to the standard of modern CCTV cams which are built on a solid metal chassis and often set inside a cast aluminum housing that acts as a heat sink and is highly vandal resistant, waterproof and designs to run 24/7 for months and years on end in the harshest of conditions

I don't think this is a good idea. The cheap plastic shell is not necessarily a bad thing. Things can be quite robust in a plastic case. The biggest advantage of the plastic case is that it is light weight. How many videos have you seen where the camera goes spinning off the windshield in an accident? I've seen quite a few. A heavy metal case would make this even more likely. The last thing I want in an accident is a pound of metal flying randomly through the car.
As to the robustness of a plastic case, I have seen a lot of posts worrying about having their expensive dash cam stolen, but although I'm sure it happens, I have never seen a post claiming someone broke into their car and stole their dashcam. Even if you do put the dashcam in a metal case, once someone breaks int your car, that metal case is not going to do much to prevent them from stealing your dashcam unless you find a more robust mounting method than a suction cup or double sided tape.

 

[DAP]

I thought of another thing to add to my post about defining quality: the device should play a unique sound when switching to parking mode. This would have prevented me from missing an indecent about a year ago. I had misconfigured my front camera, and it missed it because it had switched to parking mode while I was driving.
Also, those unique sounds might be best if it was a recording of someone saying what mode the camera is entering, such as "Starting to record", "Memory card write failure", "Shutting down", and "Entering Parking Mode". This unfortunately would probably be a problem for localization. How many languages would you have to include? Is English universal enough for everyone or would say the French (Both France and French Canadians) be pissed off that it is in English and not in French.

 

[Dashmellow]

I don't think this is a good idea. The cheap plastic shell is not necessarily a bad thing. Things can be quite robust in a plastic case. The biggest advantage of the plastic case is that it is light weight. How many videos have you seen where the camera goes spinning off the windshield in an accident? I've seen quite a few. A heavy metal case would make this even more likely. The last thing I want in an accident is a pound of metal flying randomly through the car.
As to the robustness of a plastic case, I have seen a lot of posts worrying about having their expensive dash cam stolen, but although I'm sure it happens, I have never seen a post claiming someone broke into their car and stole their dashcam. Even if you do put the dashcam in a metal case, once someone breaks int your car, that metal case is not going to do much to prevent them from stealing your dashcam unless you find a more robust mounting method than a suction cup or double sided tape.

The issue of dash cams that go flying during a crash have always involved the ones that hang down from the windshield. The ones that mount directly to the glass, like wedge shaped cams are quite secure during a crash. The thing with cast aluminum housings for a dash cam is not to be vandal proof but for the ability to act as a heat sink and the fact that a properly designed and built aluminum camera with the innards mounded on a rigid thick metal chassis like on a CCTV can offer extreme dimensional stability and thus don't warp in extreme heat or cold - so where many dash cams lenses have a habit of going out of focus in such conditions that won't happen. And many cast aluminum CCTV cams also have heat sink fins built right onto the castings to shed heat. I've never had a CCTV camera go out of focus due to high heat but I've often seen it with dash cams, nor have I ever experienced any other heat related issue. Today's CCTV cams are usually built using the same DSPs, lenses and sensors as our dash cams.

These are some of the reasons why I would like to see dash cams built to a higher standard, more like CCTV cams, so I guess I have to disagree with you on this.

 

[kamkar]

How many products do we have in our lives where we feel the need to have a second one running simultaneously because we live in chronic fear that the first one won't perform its job when needed.

I can mention one,,,,,, the TV

 

[Dashmellow]

I thought of another thing to add to my post about defining quality: the device should play a unique sound when switching to parking mode. This would have prevented me from missing an indecent about a year ago. I had misconfigured my front camera, and it missed it because it had switched to parking mode while I was driving.
Also, those unique sounds might be best if it was a recording of someone saying what mode the camera is entering, such as "Starting to record", "Memory card write failure", "Shutting down", and "Entering Parking Mode". This unfortunately would probably be a problem for localization. How many languages would you have to include? Is English universal enough for everyone or would say the French (Both France and French Canadians) be pissed off that it is in English and not in French.

I totally agree with the original list you posted earlier and the basic concepts you are talking about but my view is that instead of warnings about failures and errors we need to encourage dash cam manufacturers to strive to build dash cams that are less prone to failures in the first place! Again, more like CCTV camera reliability. They usually run 24/7 for months and years at a time in very challenging environments and very wide temperature extremes with zero failures.

 

[Dashmellow]

I can mention one,,,,,, the TV

Obviously, you must be kidding. I can't remember having a TV blink out on me since I was a kid and even then it was pretty rare.

 

[Dashmellow]

I can mention one,,,,,, the TV

Wait! Didn't you say you don't own a TV?

 

[kamkar]

No got rid of my first and only TV over a year ago, but i had it for like 10 years.
No i was not saying TVs die often, if you look past the Samsung planned obsolescence fiasco some years ago ( capacitors in them dying too early )
But with the number of Tvs most people now have, it could be taken as a fear of one of them stop working, hell even my sister have 2 TVs one in the living room and one in her bedroom.

 

[lacibaci]

Speaking of reliability, maybe dash cam manufacturers should take a page from surveillance industry where most problems have been solved.
Power interruptions, harsh environment, image quality - all are basic things that even more expensive dash cams on the market seem to struggle with.
I've had five Hiks running more than five years 24/7 without a hitch...