Mobius Telephoto Dashcam

The nice thing with the Mobius is that one can adjust for these lens color characteristic quirks. Dash cams and actions cams are generally color balanced in the firmware for the lens that happens to ship with it.

There clearly seems to be a quirky color shift sensitivity with the Mobius lens module depending upon which optic is installed. Unfortunately, when I tried to bring the issue to Mobius' attention and provided such irrefutable evidence of it they declined to even acknowledge the problem.

But if you adjust it manually, it won't adjust white balance automatically for different lighting conditions.
 
But if you adjust it manually, it won't adjust white balance automatically for different lighting conditions.
Of course it will. All you're doing is adjusting for the characteristics of the particular aftermarket lens you've installed.
There's a difference between making global colour adjustments with the lens profile A/B/C option and the color options slider, and making manual changes to the white balance. You can set profile A, B or C and your preferred color option, and still have auto WB.

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There's a difference between making global colour adjustments with the lens profile A/B/C option and the color options slider, and making manual changes to the white balance. You can set profile A, B or C and your preferred color option, and still have auto WB.

View attachment 36684

Actually, there is no difference.

Firstly, the camera does not actually have some "magic" capability to "adjust white balance automatically for different lighting conditions" as @jackalopephoto imagines.

There is in fact no such thing as "Auto WB" and you are not "turning off" "Auto WB" or anything else when you select any of the other White Balance options or "Color Slider" options.

"Auto White Balance" is simply the camera's default white point setting.

All of these options such as "Sunny", "Cloudy", "Tungsten", "Fluorescent", "Warmer" "Cooler", etc. are simply RGB value presets to facilitate usability of the camera. All dash cams are like this.

The same is true of the A/B/C "global" lens settings. They too are just programmed RGB value settings exactly the same as the above mentioned options.

So, if you were to manually change any of the options on the White Balance slider to anything other than "Auto" or create completely manual custom settings by programming in your own selected RGB values it's ALL THE SAME THING.

In each and every instance all you are doing is setting a custom WHITE POINT using the different RGB values.

For example, the "Cloudy" option is basically adding some yellow (and maybe a little red), similar to the "Warmer" setting. You could do this same thing manually via the custom RGB value settings. Each option is just a different way of setting a white point. Nothing is "automatic" except the camera attempting to match the white point setting. The camera has no ability to analyze what it is seeing and make on-the-fly color balance adjustments other than to attempt to achieve it's preset White Balance. So, if you install a lens that has a characteristic CYAN color cast and you manually set the RGB values to eliminate this color cast using ANY of the available GUI options all you are doing is creating your own version of one of the A/B/C options which are simply preset white points for the manufacturer provided lenses.

Mixing the proper amounts of RED/GREEN & BLUE light makes WHITE. This is what is otherwise known as WHITE BALANCE or WHITE POINT.
All of the different settings and color options on the Mobius are in the service of achieving white balance via the application of different RGB values. All the different options are all doing the same thing despite how it may seem in the GUI and the only thing the camera knows is to match these set values.

RGB.jpg

RGB White Balance - assuming no other factor such as a lens optic.
RGBsliderwhite.jpg

RGB Cyan adjustment (-64 points RED)
RGBslidercyan.jpg
 
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The camera clearly adjusts white balance on its own according to conditions. We've all seen this in our videos
 
The camera clearly adjusts white balance on its own according to conditions. We've all seen this in our videos

Clearly, you don't understand how this works. The camera has no ability to automatically "adjust white balance". As I've explained, the camera is merely attempting to match it's default white point setting.

Keep in mind, that my post above is in response to your remark- "But if you adjust it manually, it won't adjust white balance automatically for different lighting conditions."

If the Mobius could "automatically adjust white balance", it would correct the Cyan color cast inherent in the lens @TonyM is testing.
 
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Clearly, you don't understand how this works. As I've explained the camera is merely attempting to match it's default white point. It's not "adjusting" anything.

What do you think is happening when the colors change during a video? The camera is adjusting white balance based on what it "sees". That's how every camera works in auto white balance mode. If you RGB values manually that doesn't occur, it just stays locked in
 
What do you think is happening when the colors change during a video? The camera is adjusting white balance based on what it "sees". That's how every camera works in auto white balance mode. If you RGB values manually that doesn't occur, it just stays locked in

I'll repeat what I said above:

Keep in mind, that my post was in response to your remark- "But if you adjust it manually, it won't adjust white balance automatically for different lighting conditions."

If the Mobius could "automatically adjust white balance", it would correct the Cyan color cast inherent in the lens @TonyM is testing.
 
I'll repeat what I said above:

Keep in mind, that my post was in response to your remark- "But if you adjust it manually, it won't adjust white balance automatically for different lighting conditions."

If the Mobius could "automatically adjust white balance", it would correct the Cyan color cast inherent in the lens @TonyM is testing.

The Mobius is TRYING to adjust white balance per conditions. It's just not very good at it. Do you actually believe the camera is just randomly changing RGB balance for no reason? If you can find the Chinese programmers you can ask them why they would program in random color changing that serves no purpose
 
The Mobius is TRYING to adjust white balance per conditions. It's just not very good at it. Do you actually believe the camera is just randomly changing RGB balance for no reason? If you can find the Chinese programmers you can ask them why they would program in random color changing that serves no purpose

it just stays locked in

But if you adjust it manually, it won't adjust white balance automatically for different lighting conditions.

"Randomly changing RGB balance"....."that serves no purpose"? WTF does that mean?

"It just stays 'locked in"? WTF does that mean?

The camera doesn't do anything randomly. The camera is not "locked in" to anything (other than the newly corrected White point set by a knowledgeable user).

You seem to believe that by selecting anything other than "Auto WB" that the Mobius stops making any color adjustments at all which is simply not true. You state that "If you adjust it manually, it won't adjust white balance automatically for different lighting conditions" but that is just not how this works.

The camera will merely attempt to adjust according to the color parameters you've now selected. So, if you adjust the color balance manually to achieve a more neutral white balance the camera will react accordingly. If you were to remove a bit of CYAN manually using the individual RGB value settings the camera will keep trying for white balance just as it did before but now it will be set to a more accurate white point. Going back to where this discussion began surrounding @TonyM's 4mm ƒ/1.5 lens with a CYAN color bias if you correct the CYAN color bias for THIS INDIVIDUAL LENS using the manual RGB color value settings the camera will function exactly as it did before, only now, white objects in the image will appear more purely white rather than with a CYAN tint. The only thing that is "locked in" is a more accurate white balance for this particular lens and the camera will adjust for that.

I think much of the confusion here is the term "Auto WB" which really could best be described as "The Default WB settings". Apparently, you have a misconception that using any of the other settings other than "Auto WB" is somehow turning something "OFF" and that is not what is happening.
 
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"Randomly changing RGB balance"....."that serves no purpose"? WTF does that mean?

"It just stays 'locked in"? WTF does that mean?

The camera doesn't do anything randomly. The camera is not "locked in" to anything (other than the newly corrected White point set by a knowledgeable user).

You seem to believe that by selecting anything other than "Auto WB" that the Mobius stops making any color adjustments at all which is simply not true. You state that "If you adjust it manually, it won't adjust white balance automatically for different lighting conditions" but that is just not how this works.

The camera will merely attempt to adjust according to the color parameters you've now selected. So, if you adjust the color balance manually to achieve a more neutral white balance the camera will react accordingly. If you were to remove a bit of CYAN manually using the individual RGB value settings the camera will keep trying for white balance just as it did before but now it will be set to a more accurate white point. Going back to where this discussion began surrounding @TonyM's 4mm ƒ/1.5 lens with a CYAN color bias if you correct the CYAN color bias for THIS INDIVIDUAL LENS using the manual RGB color value settings the camera will function exactly as it did before, only now, white objects in the image will appear more purely white rather than with a CYAN tint. The only thing that is "locked in" is a more accurate white balance for this particular lens and the camera will adjust for that.

I think much of the confusion here is the term "Auto WB" which really could best be described as "The Default WB settings". Apparently, you have a misconception that using any of the other settings other than "Auto WB" is somehow turning something "OFF" and that is not what is happening.

I don't think you've experimented enough. What I observed is that when I manually set the RGB numbers, the camera did not adjust on its own at all. The white balanced was fixed. When set to default, the camera will change white balance continuously and poorly. Suddenly the image will become blue for example. This was mentioned earlier in this thread with the camera changing when a red car entered the frame. It's trying to compensate for what it thinks is changing light. I'll do some demonstration videos later to prove this to you
 
I don't think you've experimented enough. What I observed is that when I manually set the RGB numbers, the camera did not adjust on its own at all. The white balanced was fixed. When set to default, the camera will change white balance continuously and poorly. Suddenly the image will become blue for example. This was mentioned earlier in this thread with the camera changing when a red car entered the frame. It's trying to compensate for what it thinks is changing light. I'll do some demonstration videos later to prove this to you

Well Gee, I spent more than six months adjusting the RGB settings on a non IR corrected lens until I achieved a near perfect normal color balance and I've observed the lens in all kinds of changing lighting conditions. I probably have experimented with those settings more than anyone here. While there is indeed a limit to what a Mobius can adjust for with such extreme color balance settings, the camera comported itself pretty well. If it didn't it would not have been quite as usable as it was.

The color balance issue where the camera goes cyan after a red object enters the FOV is a flaw in the firmware which ironically has to do with incorrect white point parameters.
 
@Dashmellow I acknowledge that some of those image adjustment parameters are different ways of setting the white point. Thanks for reminding me about some of the basics of digital photography. Tbh I have barely touched those parameter sliders in almost 5 years of mobius ownership.

One thing i don't see in mSetup is a colour style preset. For example my Canon DSLR has picture styles like portrait, landscape, neutral and so on, as do some of my other small video cameras. These do not affect the white point, but adjust the saturation and brightness to varying degrees across the spectrum to increase or decrease emphasis on certain colours.
 
@Dashmellow I acknowledge that some of those image adjustment parameters are different ways of setting the white point. Thanks for reminding me about some of the basics of digital photography. Tbh I have barely touched those parameter sliders in almost 5 years of mobius ownership.

One thing i don't see in mSetup is a colour style preset. For example my Canon DSLR has picture styles like portrait, landscape, neutral and so on, as do some of my other small video cameras. These do not affect the white point, but adjust the saturation and brightness to varying degrees across the spectrum to increase or decrease emphasis on certain colours.

I think some of the "missing" default settings are because Mobius chose to take a different approach. The fact that there is such a depth of granular manual adjustment available on the Mobius sort of makes at least certain default presets available on other cameras besides the point. If you think about it, these are basically still there except that you need to be a bit more knowledgeable in making those settings, such as saturation and brightness because you have far more control. And the Mobius does at least have a "vivid setting". :) I'm not quite sure what "portrait" or "landscape" would accomplish for the Mobius. In a sense "landscape' is it's primary function one way or another.
 
Switching to lens profile B has removed much of the cyan colour cast to give a more faithful colour reproduction
https://dashcamtalk.com/forum/threa...-with-4mm-f1-2-lens.31145/page-17#post-393205


That makes sense since the B and C settings are much warmer that the A setting. In fact, if you take another look at the screen shots I posted two days ago in this thread, you'll notice that they are fairly "warm" in appearance even though it was an overcast day. That was because I set the Mobius to the "B" setting as an experiment just to see how that setting looks with the new IR-cut filter on my varifocal lens. I have the color balance settings in mSetup at the defaults with a slight bump in the contrast and saturation settings. Interestingly, the effect of the B setting on an overcast day with this particular lens is similar to the effect one would get using the "Cloudy" setting in the White Balance slider and this is what I was describing in my earlier post.

https://dashcamtalk.com/forum/threads/mobius-telephoto-dashcam.31523/post-392956
 
Here is my comparison video. In AWB mode of course the camera adjusts for sunlight vs incandescent light, but in Cloudy and Custom 1 (all values set to 256) it doesn't adjust. That matches what the MSetup shows and mirrors how every other camera works. When you set it to Sunny or Cloudy the numerical adjustment values change showing what those setting means. Custom lets you put in your own values. Auto of course lets the camera adjust white balance on its own. The custom setting isn't a guide that the camera deviates from sometimes


auto.JPG
 

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I was playing around with mSetup recently when I was reminded that the Mobius 1 has a wide and narrow video option. I don't think I've ever used the narrow option in almost 5 years of Mobius ownership.... so today was a first!

I decided to use the narrow video on an M1 with a 6mm F1.2 telephoto lens, the reason being that I might benefit from the increased crop. I calculated the difference between the 2304 pixel wide view and the 1920 pixel narrow view equated to an effective zoom from 6mm to about 7mm, or to put it another way the field of view decreased from 53 degrees to 46 degrees. The additional benefit of the narrow mode is that it is a direct 1920x1080 crop from the centre of the sensor, so it should be that no detail is lost through resizing the video.

These two frames show the difference between wide and narrow view. I like that I still have a tiny bit of the front of the car visible at the bottom of the video.

Wide
M1Z_0023.jpg

Narrow
M1Z_0022.jpg
 
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I use narrow because you're using the actual 1920x1080 pixels at the center of the sensor rather than downsampling from the full sensor
 
Pixel binning is not downsampling.

Downsampling is done via software with already existing digital images and is a method for disposing of pixel information

Pixel binning is a hardware term having to do with the concept of combining the electrical charges of neighboring pixels on the sensor and this technique increases S/N ratios.
 
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