Mobius Varifocal Zoom IR

Ah, so we are paying for "certified colors". Makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

Why would the card not be practical? One would simply use it as a convenient scene that has the "standard colors". Basically, doing the following:
1) Record the card under your lighting conditions with the stock lens (that has IR filter).
2) Swap lens, then record again the same card, same lighting.
3) On the same computer with the same screen compare to original and adjust the camera setting until close.

I could give you a long list of reasons why these cards are not practical but the simple fact that even the 75 dollar X-Rite calibration chart is only 8 x 11 inches and that in itself presents a problem. And this is aside from the fact that we are doing extreme color corrections on non-IR corrected lenses in highly variable and constantly changing lighting conditions. This is far more challenging than you seem to think it is, especially if you were starting from scratch entering RGB values with no guidance like I've provided above.
 
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Ah, so we are paying for "certified colors". Makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

Why would the card not be practical? One would simply use it as a convenient scene that has the "standard colors". Basically, doing the following:
1) Record the card under your lighting conditions with the stock lens (that has IR filter).
2) Swap lens, then record again the same card, same lighting.
3) On the same computer with the same screen compare to original and adjust the camera setting until close.

By the way, an important point here is that there is no "stock" lens, per se. We are working with non-IR corrected lenses that are entirely different from whatever "stock" lens came on your camera which will have different inherent color characteristics whether it has an IR-cut filter or not. On the Mobius each "stock" lens' color characteristics are accommodated and adjusted using the pre-programmed "A-B-C" lens choice options.

Beyond that the Mobius mSetup RGB settings will simply show you the default RBG values of 256/256/256, so THAT will be your starting reference point no matter which "stock" lens you have installed on the camera or any non-IR aftermarket lens you decide to install later.

So in that sense, your third suggestion, "3) On the same computer with the same screen compare to original and adjust the camera setting until close.", is what we are already doing.

@Radius8, thinking about this question a little further, using a calibration color chart could work but you would likely need to re-focus the lens so you could fill the frame with the color chart only (hopefully without too much barrel distortion) and you would need a consistent, diffused, 5000º K light source to illuminate the chart for each incremental color adjustment until you achieve the desired results.
 
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@Dashmellow - thanks again, I really do appreciate your help on this. I'm looking forward to tinkering with this. Got the lens installed and focused, just need to do the install in the car and run some test runs and do some more color tweaking.
 
@Dashmellow - thanks again, I really do appreciate your help on this. I'm looking forward to tinkering with this. Got the lens installed and focused, just need to do the install in the car and run some test runs and do some more color tweaking.

Great! And again, you're welcome!

I found that at least initially, it was helpful to just take the camera outside on my deck or even just point it out the window to do the first color correction attempts. This will speed things up over having to remove the camera from the car for each adjustment. Once I got things somewhere in the ballpark I installed the camera in my truck and continued tweaking from there after I had a chance to review lengthier videos in real world driving conditions. Once you get things somewhere close just make more modest incremental changes and see what happens.
 
Thanks for the informative discussion Dash. I'll try out the color card which I already have, possibly with different light sources or just wait until we get some sunny weather. :)
 
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Instead of refocusing the lens, why not print out the chart really big? Something a bit like this camera-test wallpaper...
View attachment 35612

Well, that would be fun! :joyful:.....Except that the cost of doing a large enough print would be prohibitive and it would be highly unlikely that the average person could easily reproduce accurate colors from the original chart in a large print-out such as an inkjet plotter print.

The task of calibrating and matching the colors of the print-out to the original calibration chart would actually be far more challenging than just adjusting the color balance of the Mobius camera.

Color Management is something I've been involved with professionally for years and it is one of those things that can make you pull your hair out. The chart would need to be photographed with a suitable camera under proper 5000º K lighting. (The chart could also be scanned but the same principles apply.) The photo would need to be transferred to a computer with an appropriate color profile, the software (Photoshop) needs to be able to match the profile with its own LUT and you also need to have a calibrated computer monitor that requires its own matching color profile which is created manually with a colorimeter. This is so the person who receives the file to work with will see the precise colors on their calibrated monitor that you are seeing and working with on your calibrated monitor. Finally, when the file is ready it needs to be exported with the proper LUT profile for the specific brand and model device it will be printed on such as an inkjet plotter, four-color press, laser printer, etc. All the calibrated values have to somehow make it from the camera which was shooting under precise color temperature controlled lighting to the final print and this can go wrong along the way far too easily if the whole process is not orchestrated properly. When things do go wrong, you'll end up with the white color chip from the original color chart that has a yellow, green, red or blue tint in the final print.
 
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Say, since we are talking dashcam, anyone checked if their car windshield pass IR? For those with "built-in" filter, there may not need to add and IR filter to the lens or do much color correction.

Apparently, California regulations requires cars sold after 2014 to use IR reflective glass (see link below).
https://glassmagazine.com/article/auto/california-mandates-use-ir-reflective-auto-glass

Unfortunately, neither my cars have this (at least not on the windshield). One car has IR rejection film on the side windows only (I had that installed when I bought the car).
Years ago, I ran some commercial window films through our research grade spectrophotometer and got this (I installed the 70% transmission in my car):

FilmTransmission.jpg

I think new coatings/films have even better performance.
 
That sounds very interesting. I'm no expert in this but the CMOS sensors in dash cameras are highly sensitive to near-infrared light - NIR (from 700 nanometers (nm) up to about 1000 nm) which is just above the visible frequencies that our eyes can perceive. This is why they require IR-cut filters which filter out near infrared for proper color balance. It's always been my understanding that mid-infrared -MIR and long wave infrared - FIR above 1000 nm are much more associated with heat than near infrared. Mid-infrared is what heat seeking missiles look for and long-wave infrared is what is associated with "thermal imaging". Still, if as the chart shows, the films are rejecting lower wavelengths then it should work, at least to some degree as a photographic IR-cut filter. One question for me would be whether the film is clear enough to be suitable for a front windshield. Wouldn't it require a tint similar to the dichroic IR-cut filters we use in our cameras?
 
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I'll try to shoot some video through my side windows and compare with no window (again when we get some sun). Meanwhile, I also dug up this picture comparing the visible light transmission of the different films.

WindowFilms.jpg

The 70 % (far left), when applied, looks sufficiently inconspicuous and color neutral that no one suspected it is there, which is good since tinting driver side windows is not allowed ;) (in the US) though many still do it. The company who applied my tint also offered to do the windshield but I declined.

Incidentally, many IR flashlights that are popular with night hunters using night vision optics have emission in the 850 nm range and the film effectively cuts most of that.

At any rate, those of you with new cars may already have sufficient IR filtering built in the glass itself for these IR lenses to work reasonably well (though not as well as the true photographic glass) without adding the IR filter. I will ask one of my colleague who just acquired a new Audi to see if that is the case for his ride. Stay tuned.
 
What about older vehicles which get new replacement windows for one reason are another, do they get the new type windows? Just a thought.
 
@Radius8, thinking about this question a little further, using a calibration color chart could work but you would likely need to re-focus the lens so you could fill the frame with the color chart only (hopefully without too much barrel distortion) and you would need a consistent, diffused, 5000º K light source to illuminate the chart for each incremental color adjustment until you achieve the desired results.

So, I decided to try out my own suggestion about using a diffused 5000º Kelvin light source to do the color corrections for these non IR corrected lenses using a calibrated color chart as suggested by @Radius8 and it turns out that it won't work with artificial lighting! And now that I've tried this and see the results it should have been obvious to me that it wouldn't have worked long before I started but I didn't think it through all the way. I was thinking in terms of how I usually go about calibrating my set-up when I have to photograph something that requires absolute color accuracy, such as photographing art work for publication. But under those circumstances there are generally no IR concerns in the lighting equation.

5000 degrees Kelvin is approximately the color temperature of noonday sunlight and is therefore used as the de facto standard for artificial "Daylight" illumination. It is commonly used in photography and video for image capture and as the standard illumination for viewing prints, negatives and in the four color printing industry for evaluating press output matched to Pantone color chips. Electronic flash on typical cameras and studio strobe lighting is also 5000º K.

Basically though, artificial 5000º K lighting has virtually none of the IR wavelength component that natural daylight does, so with or without an IR-cut filter on your camera it seems you'll get nearly the same results.

OK, so here's what I did and the results I got:

Firstly, I was inspired to try this in the first place because I just happened to have a 100 Watt 5000º K Daylight LED light bulb sitting right here in my office and it was just a matter of installing it in the architect's task lamp on my desk and pointing it at the calibration card I propped up against my second computer monitor. That made the experiment easy to do without spending too much time or effort on it in the middle of a busy day. While an LED household light bulb rated at 5000 K is not likely quite as accurate as professional studio lighting or a print shop light box it works fine for a simple test like this.

After setting up the lighting I then focused a Mobius on an 8x11 inch calibrated color rendition chart from about a foot away using the 6mm ƒ/1.2 lenses I have on hand since thanks to Treeye at AliExpress I just happen to have two identical ones, one with an IR-cut filter installed and one without an IR filter. Normally I would go about something like this with the camera on a tripod for careful aiming and alignment but in this case I just eyeballed it for lack of time knowing it would still give me the basic results I was looking for. I also didn't get too fussy about perfect focus because this too wouldn't have a huge effect on the results. This was all just a quick casual test to see what would happen.


OK, so here is the color calibration card shot with the 6mm ƒ/1.2 lens WITH an IR-cut filter under 5000º K lighting. Color balance looks pretty good, as expected.
filter_5000k.jpg

Here we have a screen shot using the other 6mm ƒ/1.2 lens WITHOUT the IR-cut filter under natural North daylight filtering in through a nearby window. As expected, the image has an overall magenta color cast as would be expected from a lens with no IR-cut filter captured with a CMOS sensor.

no_filter_daylight.jpg

Here's where things get more interesting. Here is a shot made with the same non-corrected 6mm ƒ/1.2 lens WITHOUT the IR-cut filter but under the 5000º K LED lighting.
Color balance here is more or less accurate with no IR filter with the exception of subtle shifts in the RED portion of the spectrum. Note in particular the RED color chip which is WAY off compared with the same chip above which is quite close to the actual color on the chart. From the looks of things there is "some" stray IR light coming from this bulb but most of the IR wavelengths that may be coming from the bare LED emitter are being filtered out resulting is a relatively good color balance without an IR-cut filter on the lens!

no_filter_5000k_2.jpg

Here is the 5000º K Daylight LED light bulb I used that made this test so easy to carry out.
I don't know how this experiment might be effected by the use of a different type of 5000º K lighting source but I do happen to have a light table that uses 5000º K corrected fluorescent bulbs and may do a test just to see what happens. Then again, fluorescent lighting (of any color temperature) and CMOS chips are not a marriage made in heaven because of PWM so I don't know how that might effect color balance.

100W_5000k.jpg

bulb_temp.jpg

Conclusion:

So, it looks like you could indeed use a calibration card to adjust the color balance from a non-IR corrected lens if you get close enough to the card but you will need to do so under natural daylight.

The best approach would be North light filtering in through an appropriate window or outdoors in the bright shadow of a building on a sunny day. Avoid shooting test footage under direct sunlight; it will skew your results and ultimately damage the pigments in an expensive color calibration chart.

The goal here is to try for consistency of the lighting between adjustments as best as you can achieve.
 
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Possibly, you can get replacement glass that has the IR rejecting coatings. Depending on which technology the manufacturer used, it may look like the dichroic type that Dashmellow mentioned above. Those are typically made using deposited coatings of metallic substances.

The film I had installed claimed to use "nano-ceramic" technology so it does not look colored or show iridescence.
Presumably there are now films that are sufficiently clear so tinting the front windshield is legal. 3M has a film that is a 90 VLT (visible light transmission).
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company.../?N=5002385+8710654+8710692+3292716668&rt=rud
 
"According to 3M, the company’s clear films will allow anywhere from 40 percent to 90 percent of visible light into a car, depending on which grade is chosen. Also dependent upon which grade is chosen is the amount of solar energy rejected, which ranges from 34 percent to 60 percent." So the 90 VLT (visible light transmission) product will be rejecting 34 percent of solar energy. Apparently, the cost of 3M’s window films range from $500 to $800 per vehicle. Ouch!

http://www.motortrend.com/news/3ms-window-films-block-heat-uv-rays-dark-tint-77391/
 
Great and super detail work Dashmellow. That must have taken you a while. (y)

I was thinking of this as well and came to the conclusion that to correct for sunlight conditions, you need, well sunlight. The light spectrum of artificial lighting does match sufficiently to be representative. Using a photographic "color correct" light say 5K color temperature only takes into account human visible frequencies (of course).

(taken from http://www.sunlightinside.com/light-and-health/natural-light-versus-artificial-light/)
LightSpectrum.jpg

The colors from my Mobius with the Varifocal IR lens were pretty good indoors under office lighting conditions (which have no IR) but were, as expected completely off outdoors under sunlight. Same results you got Dasmellow. That's what we get for "mapping" non human visible light into the human visible spectrum. ;) Who knows how the camera's algorithm does the conversion.

This brings us to the following. For those of you that have traditional halogen headlights, you might in fact benefit from using an unfiltered IR lens at night as that light source seem to put out quite a bit of IR and thus, would make your video brighter. With HID or LED headlights, there would be little to no benefit since these lights don't put out much IR if any. Anyhow, something else to think of.

I'll leave the work Mobius unfiltered since it's used indoors for experiments. I ordered one of these F1.2 lens (on Amazon for 2X cost of AliExpress) which looks like the same as the Treeye from the other thread but is unfiltered. I'll probably just add a IR filter to that for dashcam use since my cars have HID and LED lights.
 
... Apparently, the cost of 3M’s window films range from $500 to $800 per vehicle. Ouch! .../

While the film itself is expensive (like any other of the top tier film), it's also labor cost, depening on the car. Doing a proper install work is almost like art. Crappy application will result in poor performance and early delamination (see all those pople driving around with bubbles in their window film).

The 90% VLT 3M stuff still block 90% of IR, which is pretty darn good.
 
For those of you that have traditional halogen headlights, you might in fact benefit from using an unfiltered IR lens at night as that light source seem to put out quite a bit of IR and thus, would make your video brighter. With HID or LED headlights, there would be little to no benefit since these lights don't put out much IR if any. Anyhow, something else to think of.

I have halogen headlights on my vehicle but unfortunately didn't observe any significant beneficial IR effects at night from having a non-IR corrected lens on my Mobius. This ƒ/1.4 lens does seem to perform better at night than other lenses I own so that could be what I am seeing but as a zoom lens the maximum aperture would be minimized when at full magnification so again, it's hard to know whether IR transmission has anything to do with the results. Since I live in a rural area where I drive in pitch black conditions with no street lights it is generally fairly easy to know how something like that might be effecting capture performance. It's "possible" that I am seeing "some" IR benefit but it is difficult to quantify. Over the years of using dash cams, driving in pitch black conditions is the ultimate "low light" testing environment.

After shooting nighttime video of those grey and red foxes in total darkness using an IR emitter as seen earlier in this thread I had the idea to mount an IR emitter on the front grill of my truck to see how that might improve night time video capture performance out on the road. I wasn't able to get around to that project before harsh winter conditions arrived here in New England but I may see about trying this come spring. And with the use of 940nm IR emitters they would be completely invisible to oncoming drivers. Even typical 850nm IR emitters with a red glow would likely not look out of the ordinary to an oncoming vehicle.
 
:D fascinating thread.

BTW, license plates reflect IR pretty well too. That's where the cops aim that LIDAR gun at (or the headlights). A few years ago, I got the opportunity to play with one and I found it rather difficult to use. You had to hold it very steady and aim it just right to get a reading. Probably newer models are better.


IR_LightBar.jpg
 
Yes, this Varifocal IR lens does seem to often have the ability to capture certain license plate numbers that other cams miss. It seems to depend quite a bit in the particular colors on the plate and how much each color absorbs or reflects IR. I happen to live in a location that is only several miles from two adjacent states and in an area that attracts lots of tourists and travelers so I encounter quite a few different colored plates on any given day.
 
That's what I need, an IR light bar than costs about 15 times more than the IR lens I installed in my camera! :joyful: Looks cool! I want one!
 
OK, I got the chance to catch a moment when there was some bit of sunlight. At least sufficient to demonstrate if the window film does indeed cut IR.

Here are a couple frame grabs from Mobius equipped with the F1.2, 4mm lens and no IR filter (I got on Amazon but looks to be the same as the Treeye one from Ali). Using default "A" lens setting with no other corrections.

With window open. As expected, the colors are affected.
NoFilterOpenWindow.jpg

Now, shot through my side window which has the "Nano ceramic" heat rejecting 70% VLT film. As you can see, the colors appear to be "normal" though the image is darker.
NoFilterThroughWindow.jpg

So, conclusion is that with heat rejecting window tint, it is possible to use an uncorrected lens and get acceptable color rendition. Unfortunately, it does also cut down on the overall light. Now to find a new car with IR rejecting glass to see if it works there too.
 
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