SG9665GC High Contrast/Dynamic Range Flaw and other Discouragements

[Dashmellow]

I'll even send you a flash drive with a pre-paid label if that's easier for you to send all your raw video samples. I'm willing to work with you or give a refund. I'm not sure what else to offer or say. There is no silencing attempt here just my normal customer service effort.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

OK, I guess I can put files onto a DVD.

 

[wozzzzza]

I'm not sure what else to offer or say.

maybe offer a more expensive and more crappy blackspew so he can go tell them, without any replies, how ****ty their cams are.

 

[Dashmellow]

maybe offer a more expensive and more crappy blackspew so he can go tell them, without any replies, how ****ty their cams are.

Still at it I see. Nothing constructive to offer, just more spittle.

 

[jokiin]

The RAW file you privately asked me to post for you on Dropbox.

yes I have that one file, it doesn't show what you are demonstrating in the last few posts, I just watched it through again to make sure I'm not missing something

What else can I do but try to demonstrate what I am experiencing?

if you genuinely want to help we need the video samples, on DVD or flash drive would do and Jon can upload them

 

[Dashmellow]

yes I have that one file, it doesn't show what you are demonstrating in the last few posts, I just watched it through again to make sure I'm not missing something



if you genuinely want to help we need the video samples, on DVD or flash drive would do and Jon can upload them

The posts today were basically to try to show the dark images that occur along with the well exposed ones. The blooming highlights are still there but certainly much improved over earlier firmware. If the camera would stop overcompensating at both ends of the exposure and contrast extremes I think the problem would be resolved.

As mentioned earlier by me and member @lacibaci, some of the difficulties you are having in taming this firmware may have a lot to do with the sensor/DSP match and I speculate that it may never be quite right if what I've seen on other entries using the same components are any indication. I think the remarkable WDR comparison I posted of the very early firmware on the new Mobius 2 using a different sensor suggests this possibility. I thought you might have a comment or two about that comparison actually.

Sure, I'm happy to help but I'm sort of reaching the end of the line with this camera. I guess I haven't much more time or energy to put into this thing though.

At this point in time I'm very curious to see the next planned update where you mentioned "(further adjustments happening at the moment) then will be doing contrast and brightness adjustments once we have the weighting correct".

 

[jokiin]

At this point in time I'm very curious to see the next planned update where you mentioned "(further adjustments happening at the moment) then will be doing contrast and brightness adjustments once we have the weighting correct".

we will be testing some different AE table settings this week, that needs to be improved before we can do contrast and brightness adjustments otherwise we're chasing our tails

 

[Rhody401]

I've only had mine for a week, but I'm incredibly impressed with the quality of the picture and how she handles exposure adjustments. When looking directly into the sun, I don't think ANY camera will do well with auto adjustments. The firmware has had time to mature, and it shows, IMO. Seeing how the vendor literally bends over backwards to provide support, even on weekends, I know I made the right choice. I look forward to any future firmware updates, and to trying the dual camera product when it comes out.

My concern is more about the glare/reflection from the windshield, when the sun is in front of me. (not the fault of the camera)

This is my first dashcam, but I am a licensed video contractor and work with similar cameras often in office buildings. For the price point, we're getting a LOT of technology, IMO.

It should be interesting to see what the next generation brings, in a month.

 

[jokiin]

thanks @Rhody401 appreciate the feedback, we are still working on improving the firmware, we are nowhere near done with it, what we are doing will directly translate into some of the stuff we need to do in our 2 channel products

 

[jimbo84]

In my very first post to this thread I spoke of how the severe exposure problems, especially blown-out bright areas and transitions in and out of bright scenes we see with the SG9665GC do not occur to such a degree with any other of the numerous dash cams I've owned and I provided many simultaneously captured photographic examples. I would recommend anyone coming to this thread for the first time to go back to the beginning and have a look.

Recently, I've been testing out the newly released Mobius 2 camera. While the Mobius 2 needs a tremendous amount of firmware development going forward and has certain other flaws that will need to be resolved before it is quite ready for prime time I have been so impressed with the camera's ability to properly handle wide dynamic range scenarios that I want to show the difference between this new camera and the SG9665GC because it so clearly illustrates the GC's major flaw I have been trying to address for these long sixteen months.

Yesterday, I was simply out testing the new Mobius and happened to have it mounted near my SG9665GC. My intention was not to compare the two cameras but when I saw yesterday's footage and how it did compare with the identical footage from the recent beta 22 firmware from the GC my jaw dropped.

As far as dynamic range performance is concerned, even this flawed freshman firmware release from the Mobius 2 is everything the two year old SG9665GC with its numerous firmware fix-its is not.

SG9665GC
View attachment 25055

Mobius 2 - note the overall superb tonal range along with good detail on the car compared with the GC. (30 fps high data rate)
View attachment 25058

I have focused much attention on the blown-out upper tonal range issue with the SG9665GC but the other side of the coin here is the completely blocked up shadow detail. This is what dynamic range is all about.
Notice that along with the blown-out upper tonal range in the sky and on the road you cannot even tell that there is a mailbox hidden in the shadows on the left side of the road. This is still Beta 22, of course.
View attachment 25056

Mobius 2 This is the way a dash cam "should" handle a challenging wide dynamic range lighting scenario.
View attachment 25057

Hello there, I have been lurking on this thread and the beta firmware thread for a while now. So far I haven't felt like I had anything to add although I have also been seeing this same issue with my SG9665GC.

Anyway, your picture comparison perfectly illustrates the problem here and I just want to throw something in that I'm not 100% sure I've seen mentioned directly yet, although it's been touched on. (I'm sure you must have been through this with the developer, maybe in PM, so forgive me if I missed it.)

If I saw these two pictures from a digital still camera I would immediately assume that the top one has been left accidentally on maximum ISO, so although the meter may make the correct exposure the highlights will clip because you are 'pushing' the sensor. I always understood the widest dynamic range was achieved at the 'native' sensitivity.

I'm not so familiar with digital video, but it still uses a CMOS so I guess the same thing will apply?

I feel a bit stupid asking this, especially as some of your earlier posts clearly show a slow shutter speed but.........
My assumption is that the gain must be adjusted along with the shutter speed to achieve the correct EV, or is the sensor running high ISO all the time and using fast shutter speeds? That would cause the highlights to clip all the time, but you've all spent so much time on this I'm sure the problem must be running deeper than that?

 

[Paul Schmehl]

As an independent observer I find myself wondering if any other manufacturer would be this patient - or this open. I kind of figure the Ddpai M6+ I ordered is a you're-on-your-own camera. We'll see. At any rate, reading your posts @Dashmellow, it sounds like you've lost trust in SG, so maybe it really is time to move on.

 

[thancam]

My assumption is that the gain must be adjusted along with the shutter speed to achieve the correct EV, or is the sensor running high ISO all the time and using fast shutter speeds? That would cause the highlights to clip all the time, but you've all spent so much time on this I'm sure the problem must be running deeper than that?

I opened few kind of dashcams in past and i remmber: there is no shutter in dashcam.

 

[jackkk]

I opened few kind of dashcams in past and i remmber: there is no shutter in dashcam.

My opinion with no technical back ground It seems to me that the Seller has bent over backwards to fix the exposure flaw in this DVR. It is a pity that this Seller has to suffer because of this one DVR. No lack of support on the Seller's part. With this being said perhaps at this point maybe the Seller should be investigating the hardware as with so many firmware updates the exposure flaw is still lingering. Case in point as Dashmellow seems to be really upset with the firmware updates that really do not remedy this problem

 

[jackkk]

I've only had mine for a week, but I'm incredibly impressed with the quality of the picture and how she handles exposure adjustments. When looking directly into the sun, I don't think ANY camera will do well with auto adjustments. The firmware has had time to mature, and it shows, IMO. Seeing how the vendor literally bends over backwards to provide support, even on weekends, I know I made the right choice. I look forward to any future firmware updates, and to trying the dual camera product when it comes out.

My concern is more about the glare/reflection from the windshield, when the sun is in front of me. (not the fault of the camera)

This is my first dashcam, but I am a licensed video contractor and work with similar cameras often in office buildings. For the price point, we're getting a LOT of technology, IMO.

It should be interesting to see what the next generation brings, in a month.

With all due respect...That really doesn't help people that own this problematic DVR now. It is disappointing to know that a new generation will replace the existing DVR. Doesn't seem fair.

 

[DT MI]

...It is disappointing to know that a new generation will replace the existing DVR. Doesn't seem fair.

New product(s) will not replace the SG9665GC but will be additions to the product line.

 

[Street Guardian USA]

New product(s) will not replace the SG9665GC but will be additions to the product line.

That's correct GC isn't going anywhere any time soon (continuous improvements are still in the works ) even as Street Guardian develops next generation products.

Remember Street Guardian is a relatively new company. The Novatek factory Engineers wouldn't give us the time of day until 2016/recently now our volume is high enough to be noticed and SDK needs/suggestions actually heard. We've only recently been able to do the first wave of AE tables with this additional expert help. It was a bit of an in house DIY before this point.

 

[jackkk]

That's correct GC isn't going anywhere any time soon (continuous improvements are still in the works ) even as Street Guardian develops next generation products.

Remember Street Guardian is a relatively new company. The Novatek factory Engineers wouldn't give us the time of day until 2016/recently now our volume is high enough to be noticed and SDK needs/suggestions actually heard. We've only recently been able to do the first wave of AE tables with this additional expert help. It was a bit of an in house DIY before this point.

Thanks for the information

 

[jimbo84]

I opened few kind of dashcams in past and i remmber: there is no shutter in dashcam.

Indeed, there is no mechanical shutter, however doesn't it use electronic techniques to achieve the same effect?

Hence I still call it a shutter even though it is electronic with no moving parts.

 

[Dashmellow]

As an independent observer I find myself wondering if any other manufacturer would be this patient - or this open. I kind of figure the Ddpai M6+ I ordered is a you're-on-your-own camera. We'll see. At any rate, reading your posts @Dashmellow, it sounds like you've lost trust in SG, so maybe it really is time to move on.

I see you have been a member here for all of three days, so I will consider that before I take your suggestion as an "independent observer" under advisement.

I have been a member here on DCT for three years now and have been interacting with @Pier28 since long before he decided to go from being a regular member here on DCT to establishing himself as a retailer and business partner of Rick's and before @jokiin even had a viable product on the market or had established the Street Guardian brand in its current form. As a three year member with a six years of experience using dash cams my observations are quite different than yours.

 

[Dashmellow]

My opinion with no technical back ground It seems to me that the Seller has bent over backwards to fix the exposure flaw in this DVR. It is a pity that this Seller has to suffer because of this one DVR. No lack of support on the Seller's part. With this being said perhaps at this point maybe the Seller should be investigating the hardware as with so many firmware updates the exposure flaw is still lingering. Case in point as Dashmellow seems to be really upset with the firmware updates that really do not remedy this problem

I'm not "upset" with the firmware updates, just discouraged by them. Based on my interactions, extensive correspondence and various reassurances about this particular issue when I first brought it to their attention in May 2015, I never anticipated that all this time later any of us would still be dealing with it.

The fact is that a lot of important and valuable hard work has gone into the current firmware that has brought it a long way towards dealing with the shortcomings of this camera but important work still needs to be done.

My current opinion is that it is possible that this sensor and the DSP combination may turn out to make it impossible to ultimately resolve what is an undeniable dynamic range compaction issue, but after all this I am not quite ready to throw the towel in.

 

[Paul Schmehl]

I see you have been a member here for all of three days, so I will consider that before I take your suggestion as an "independent observer" under advisement.

I have been a member here on DCT for three years now and have been interacting with @Pier28 since long before he decided to go from being a regular member here on DCT to establishing himself as a retailer and business partner of Rick's and before @jokiin even had a viable product on the market or had established the Street Guardian brand in its current form. As a three year member with a six years of experience using dash cams my observations are quite different than yours.

No offense, but my observation wasn't directed at you. My only advice to you was that it sounds like you've lost trust in the vendor, and perhaps it was time to move on.

I wasn't aware that I had to be a member for three years before I was allowed to express an opinion. Frankly, you seem a little angry given your reaction to my comments.