A119 PRO?!?

[Mtz]

Read above your post.

 

[bnevets27]

oops. Right, forgot about the holiday and I didn't refresh the page from last night so I didn't see those posts.

 

[c4rc4m]

Yes I'm also wanting to know. Quite excited that Viofo appear to be taking the quality orientated route for this model.

 

[Moon]

The current A119 sells for around AU$140 in Australia. S model approx AU$155.
It would be good to keep the budget base model at this price and have a Premium model like the PRO at either AU$200 or AU$250
The VicoVation OPIA2 sells for around AU$350 ... so VIOFO can match their 'Quality' and still maintain their reputation as 'Best bang for your Buck'

Problem I see with this though ... is that when better quality components become available, like, say the Sony STARVIS - we / I would expect that this should be used to improve their base model ... as it probably wouldn't cost VIOFO much more to upgrade without affecting the selling price. Like previous poster/s have mentioned ... I'd like to have a 'Premium' model as an option ... with a longer warranty (perhaps built into the price?) to reflect VIOFO's belief in the quality of their product. 2 years minimum ... 3 would be nice

ps. Perhaps Retailers could eventually offer the option for a longer warranty for an extra few $ ... ?

 

[c4rc4m]

The current A119 sells for around AU$140 in Australia. S model approx AU$155.
It would be good to keep the budget base model at this price and have a Premium model like the PRO at either AU$200 or AU$250
The VicoVation OPIA2 sells for around AU$350 ... so VIOFO can match their 'Quality' and still maintain their reputation as 'Best bang for your Buck'

Problem I see with this though ... is that when better quality components become available, like, say the Sony STARVIS - we / I would expect that this should be used to improve their base model ... as it probably wouldn't cost VIOFO much more to upgrade without affecting the selling price. Like previous poster/s have mentioned ... I'd like to have a 'Premium' model as an option ... with a longer warranty (perhaps built into the price?) to reflect VIOFO's belief in the quality of their product. 2 years minimum ... 3 would be nice

ps. Perhaps Retailers could eventually offer the option for a longer warranty for an extra few $ ... ?

Agreed although personally I'd like to see quality move forward not stand still. To me, I'd like to see a manufacturer produce a cam that's next level for quality, not that simply matches the nearest competitor at the price eg in your example, Opia. After all, we all buy cameras for differing reasons besides simply capturing crashes which is a common goal, however, the one thing we all have in common, is we want to be able to read number plates at the maximum possible distance in all conditions, and that results from increased image quality, be it increased pixel count, better lens, less compression, narrower fov etc etc, or a combination of all or any of these.

Any manufacturer can produce a cam that matches the leading competitor, but how does that drive the industry forward if no-one tries to produce anything better than anyone else? What we really need is someone to start to shake the tree at the top end and produce something that's reasonably priced but that stands out in quality against the competition, as that then drives other manufacturers to try to better it and takes the whole industry forward. It also over time leads to better budget models as the technology in last years flagship model becomes this years budget device.

 

[bnevets27]

It also over time leads to better budget models as the technology in last years flagship model becomes this years budget device.

This I agree with. When a new model comes out that is supposed to be an upgrade in quality and features of the current model. The currently model should get discounted. This naturally leads to the products that are a generation or two behind to become the budget products. It also insures that as new models come out they don't get progressively more and more expensive. Having two models with different price points is fine but don't just come out with a new product, charge more and leave the current model price. I'll that does is drive up the price and customers will likely go elsewhere.

 

[Mtz]

What we really need is someone to start to shake the tree at the top end and produce something that's reasonably priced but that stands out in quality against the competition

The manufacturers are using the same chipsets and CMOS available for everybody. Viofo started to use Sony CMOS before many others and the Sony Starvis before many many many others, trying to use the best from the market. Then tried to use better and better lens, because they are thinking that if on a market same hardware is offered to anybody the the difference can be made only by lens. And some more work for firmware adjustments they did also.
Unfortunately the only big step I see right now is if using bigger size CMOS. I said unfortunately because if some bigger sensor really exists it must be supported also by the chipset manufacturer.
Until the big step we will see some new small things from dashcam manufacturers like new (great) firmware options, better Wi-Fi, maybe cloud option, buffered parking mode, but in near future I do not see any fantastic improvement on dashcam market, even 4K dashcams will start to be more and more available.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[kamkar]

I have been looking around at 4K sensors, and there are options for sure, most easy to find footage on the Sony sensors.

I for sure are standing but to test a 4K dashcam, but aside for daytime i dont have my hopes set too high, though i also dont think low light footage will be garbage,,, not at all.

 

[bnevets27]

Trying to get the best of both worlds usually ends is having mediocre of both.

Would make more sense to use two sensors. No one cares for a pretty picture at night anyhow. Just 100% optimized for license plates. I would even go far as to say black and white might be acceptable.

Daylight can use a different sensor and have nice beautiful image quality without having to compromise to get good night footage.

Light sensor could switch between the sensor being used or take a page out of some of the phones and combine the two.

Add the ability to separate the cam from the recording device would be nice. Though you wouldn't be able to make everyone happy. Some users want 1 cam that's all in one like we have now. Some want front and rear. Some want more. But if made to be modular then it would allow more options.

In the future it would be awesome if it would be possible for a cam to connect automatically to your home wifi and allow access to the recordings. You could then set up a program to automatically download the footage everyday to your computer.

 

[c4rc4m]

The manufacturers are using the same chipsets and CMOS available for everybody. Viofo started to use Sony CMOS before many others and the Sony Starvis before many many many others, trying to use the best from the market. Then tried to use better and better lens, because they are thinking that if on a market same hardware is offered to anybody the the difference can be made only by lens. And some more work for firmware adjustments they did also.
Unfortunately the only big step I see right now is if using bigger size CMOS. I said unfortunately because if some bigger sensor really exists it must be supported also by the chipset manufacturer.
Until the big step we will see some new small things from dashcam manufacturers like new (great) firmware options, better Wi-Fi, maybe cloud option, buffered parking mode, but in near future I do not see any fantastic improvement on dashcam market, even 4K dashcams will start to be more and more available.

enjoy,
Mtz

There are many different sensors out there from Sony in both Starvis and non Starvis. I googled them and found a complete list here:

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor0/products/cmos.html

Many different sensors and sizes. So no need for everyone to use the same. I'm guessing one reason this happens is cost. A bigger sensor requires larger more expensive optics and more pixels require more processing power plus bigger SD cards plus more perfect resolution in the optics. That said, someone needs to break away from the norm, or in 20 yrs time, we could all still be on tiny sensors with a few pixels over 1080P, with the major difference between top brands being the brand on the front and no real difference in quality to what we have today. Just my 2 cents.

 

[jokiin]

Many different sensors and sizes. So no need for everyone to use the same. I'm guessing one reason this happens is cost.

cost will stop all the entry level products using anything but the lowest models, cost isn't the inhibitor though, need hardware support from the chipset vendor before other sensors can be used

 

[kamkar]

I am pretty sure 4K will be sweet when there are some light to work with.
But to be honest i wouldn't like messing with such a camera if it was saving on a memory card, not even if it used H.265 or something newer.
So personally i will be passing on 4K dashcams until they have a better means of storage.

 

[c4rc4m]

cost will stop all the entry level products using anything but the lowest models, cost isn't the inhibitor though, need hardware support from the chipset vendor before other sensors can be used

From what I can see many of these sensors appear to be in use in CCTV products, so there should be some chipset support.

 

[jokiin]

From what I can see many of these sensors appear to be in use in CCTV products, so there should be some chipset support.

if it was a chipset that was also used in CCTV products

 

[Mtz]

I am pretty sure 4K will be sweet when there are some light to work with.

The first 4K dashcams are and will be with small sensors for sure. Many people will buy them only because it is printed 4K on the case. Some manufacturers will disappoint their customers because will be not able to offer major quality over actual FullHD. Viofo A119 can record at 2K but until now I didn't see any review which is telling something like: Yeah, 2K is offering more 50% details compared to FullHD! So the resolution is increasing because of specs, but what about image details?
Not to forget also the night footage which is can be poor for 4K compared to FullHD. We read too many times on this forum that more MP will generate darker images so an 8MP CMOS will be darker compared to a 2MP CMOS.

if it was a chipset that was also used in CCTV products

And because of this some dashcam manufacturers will start using Hisilicon instead of Novatek or Ambarella. A CCTV chipset manufacturer is more specialized in streaming video over wireless and these days more and more people will want cloud support, live support. If Novatek and Ambarella will not catch the Hisilicon on this features they will lose more market.
I already wrote in my previous post that chipset manufacturers must to support a bigger CMOS, from now I will write more clear: Novatek must to support a bigger CMOS. I remember Viofo was maybe the first which used the IMX291 on Viofo A119S and when camera was released the Novatek was still working to implement the IMX291 code in their firmware and because of this the A119S image was not so great at the start.

I'm guessing one reason this happens is cost.

I never had an iPhone but I read somewhere that iPhone launched a cheaper model to enter on the cheaper market. That cheap model was not well sold because people want to pay more for an iPhone, not just few $$$. Today they are selling expensive and more than expensive models.
I see models like BlackVue or Thinkware which are expensive but the quality of the image is lower than the cheapest Viofo. Why are some people which are spending so much money for a dashcam?
Do you want an iPhone? Pay! Do you want greatest image? Pay!

in 20 yrs time, we could all still be on tiny sensors with a few pixels over 1080P

Unfortunately today this is true and sad. More sad is that some dashcam manufacturers started to sell fake 4K dashcams. I was fighting against fake 4K action cams on this forum so I will fight against fake 4K dashcams because this is a dashcam forum, first!

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[jokiin]

And because of this some dashcam manufacturers will start using Hisilicon instead of Novatek or Ambarella. A CCTV chipset manufacturer is more specialized in streaming video over wireless and these days more and more people will want cloud support, live support. If Novatek and Ambarella will not catch the Hisilicon on this features they will lose more market.

HiSilicon is going to have an edge in the wifi/cloud solutions as they have a lot of experience in this area due to being a part of Huawei so their cell phone and networking background gives them a lot of strength, their video is not quite there yet but that may be something they can improve faster than the others can improve their connectivity

The first 4K dashcams are and will be with small sensors for sure. Many people will buy them only because it is printed 4K on the case. Some manufacturers will disappoint their customers because will be not able to offer major quality over actual FullHD. Viofo A119 can record at 2K but until now I didn't see any review which is telling something like: Yeah, 2K is offering more 50% details compared to FullHD! So the resolution is increasing because of specs, but what about image details?
Not to forget also the night footage which is can be poor for 4K compared to FullHD. We read too many times on this forum that more MP will generate darker images so an 8MP CMOS will be darker compared to a 2MP CMOS.

Unfortunately today this is true and sad. More sad is that some dashcam manufacturers started to sell fake 4K dashcams. I was fighting against fake 4K action cams on this forum so I will fight against fake 4K dashcams because this is a dashcam forum, first!

even the real 4K dashcam exists I think it still needs a lot of improvement, the positives it has are still outweighed by the negatives, maybe it's seen as better for marketing purposes or as a flagship model to raise the profile of a brand but until it delivers a better end result I think that's a challenge

 

[Mtz]

Another problem from a 4K dashcam manufacturer is because the video is not much much better than the Full HD (it should be 4 times better, no?) they can not ask the right price based on the hardware so they will try to stay closer to the Full HD prices.

With Hisilicon you explained better than me with less words, the english is helping you much more than mine.
In some connection with this, just think that the basic function of a mobile telephone (calls and SMS) is almost the same like 10 years ago. Today we have smartphones which can do much things compared to a simple telephone, just think to making video and photos and uploading them. If today iPhone will make just a mobile phone which will cost them $100 they will not sell that for $700 because is almost impossible, but they can sell an iPhone which for example is costing them $300 and sell it with $900. Same price difference of $600 but one product have great sales and the other product will never sell.

If dashcams can not be much more improved regarding image quality the new models from known brands needs to bring some new features. As I already wrote, I see better image by using bigger CMOS.

The fake 4K dashcams thread is here.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[jokiin]

Another problem from a 4K dashcam manufacturer is because the video is not much better than the Full HD (it should be 4 times better, no?) they can not ask the right price based on the hardware so they will try to stay closer to the Full HD prices.

right now I don't see 4K cameras delivering better results than 1080p for our purpose, while ever they are using same size format lens and sensors I think this will be the case, we need larger pixels before we need more pixels

 

[Mtz]

Always when I am saying bigger CMOS (size) this means only bigger size like 1" CMOS size, not more pixels like 20MP CMOS.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[jokiin]

Always when I am saying bigger CMOS (size) this means only bigger size like 1" CMOS size, not more pixels like 20MP CMOS.

enjoy,
Mtz

yes I understand your meaning