A119 PRO?!?

[Mtz]

Good! Life is not easy when you write in english but english is not your native language. And imagine how I speak english if I speak it maybe 2 minutes/year because I am forced of some circumstances. Who imagine that I speak english at least so good like I write it, is very wrong.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[jokiin]

your spoken English is fine, written English can be a little more difficult to interpret the meaning at times but I think you're doing just fine there also

 

[Moon]

Your English is good enough to understand ... and your knowledge and experience is helpful. It is also good practice for you writing in English in here.

Keep up the good work, Mtz (& others)

 

[magistrfet]

a119 pro -possible here will be used new Aptina AR0521 5Mpx? Nope?

 

[Mtz]

Very possible. The AR0521 is bigger (1/2.5") compared to OV4689 (1/3") and will bring better image quality just because of this.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[c4rc4m]

right now I don't see 4K cameras delivering better results than 1080p for our purpose, while ever they are using same size format lens and sensors I think this will be the case, we need larger pixels before we need more pixels

If they're not delivering an increase in quality in good light then that really points to one or more of the usual suspects in my mind: Optics, Compression, etc.

On the optic front 4K really needs optics capable of resolving over 4K's worth of detail. If you pair a 4K sensor with a 1080P optic, then what you get is 1080P's worth of resolution spread over a 4K sized image as the sensor can only record the resolution that is fed to it. That's why I said the difficulty with going higher res and bigger sensor is optic cost. You need more perfect glass and much higher resolving power, and in the case of a larger sensor, much bigger glass, to actually deliver a good 4K image. That's why companies such as Backbone can deliver discernible improvements over many standard action cams by simply swapping out the lens for a higher resolution one - the lens is the limiting factor. I'd suggest, it's potentially at least one of the limiting factors with 4K dashcams as well.

As for night time, low light is more problematic. However, 4K STARVIS sensors are starting to appear and again a larger sensor gathers more light. The only way is up (in size!): Just my opinions.

 

[Mtz]

For the start buyers will buy just because is printed 4K on the case and if they will be lucky and not bought a fake 4K dashcam, will think and hope and that 4K is better than QHD or FullHD. For sure some more details will be in the real 4K videos recorded by the real 4K cameras, but not 400% more details corresponding to 400% more resolution for 4K compared to Full HD.

Just look at the 4K GoPro lens. Some visible difference between an old Full HD GoPro and a new model 4K GoPro? The CMOS is 4K, the video is 4K as measurements so nobody will complain that the GoPro video is not 4K. So if GoPro is selling a lot, why not dashcam manufacturers to follow the same way?

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[SawMaster]

I believe that the main reason we don't have up-to-date technology in dashcams is price. Many (or most) of us cannot justify spending more than a few hundred dollars on cams for one vehicle. So would you spend that same money on one 4K cam in front or is it more wise to get two or more HD cams that are still good enough instead? That same problem extends to the cam manufacturers. They will not invest in creating a product which will not profit them with rapid sales.

The action cam market is different than ours even if the hardware is similar. People who can afford a $2K drone "toy" can afford better cams than the average car driver. I do like to see progress but until I can afford it I am a spectator, not a player on the field.

Phil

 

[Mtz]

I think Viofo can make a real 4K camera with bigger CMOS and good lens at the same price of a Full HD F800 Pro camera. How people can buy an F800 Pro they can buy a Viofo with much much better image compared to the F800. A real 4K against an Full HD.

I see people are looking only at the money. When you have products which are assuring the necessary sales of your brand you can create a top model just to obtain a top position of your brand, to show to the world how powerful is your brand.
Look at DJi what they did on drones market. There are DJi drones which are expensive and ”others”, no matter who, even GoPro. After drones they developed also their cameras and gimbals. If they want they can become in less than one year leaders also in dashcam market. DJI dashcam and the ”others”. Just because they are thinking how to be the best on the market, they are not fighting for low prices or with competition, they are on their way of innovation.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[jokiin]

Current A119 has better video than most of the top tier Korean cameras but people still buy those, price isn't always a good performance indicator

 

[Mtz]

I know this but a Thinkware/Blackvue category buyer will not look for a Viofo if is just Full HD. A 4K Viofo camera can draw their attention and possible to buy it instead of Thinkware/Blackvue or at least to be interested how good is the Viofo image.
Back on topic, if A119 is better than F800 then I expect the A119 Pro will be even better.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[Moon]

if A119 is better than F800 then I expect the A119 Pro will be even better.

Anything less than 1440p in the PRO would be disappointing (like the WR1 turned out)
As for night quality - minimum Sony STARVIS ... but let's take it up a notch and have the latest improved version
Add a sharpness option: low - med - med/high ....... plus some added features that are useful - like a timer that you can set to switch from night to day vision

 

[c4rc4m]

For the start buyers will buy just because is printed 4K on the case and if they will be lucky and not bought a fake 4K dashcam, will think and hope and that 4K is better than QHD or FullHD. For sure some more details will be in the real 4K videos recorded by the real 4K cameras, but not 400% more details corresponding to 400% more resolution for 4K compared to Full HD.

Just look at the 4K GoPro lens. Some visible difference between an old Full HD GoPro and a new model 4K GoPro? The CMOS is 4K, the video is 4K as measurements so nobody will complain that the GoPro video is not 4K. So if GoPro is selling a lot, why not dashcam manufacturers to follow the same way?

enjoy,
Mtz

I couldn't comment on GoPro, or indeed any individual brand and say they aren't resolving 4K. What can be said though, is that with many action cams a definite improvement can be seen between the standard lens and a backbone accessory one indicating there's at least some limiting factor whether that's resolution, or sharpness generally, linearity etc. It has to be said you see the same thing with eg SLR camera lenses between pro and consumer models, so some of it may just be cost factors and manufacturers achieving the balance. However, I'm sure on a high end dashcam, there's room for improvement as surely there's at least 1 bargain high quality lens out there or one that could be reasonably cheap in bulk. After all many board lenses are made for optical instruments such as microscopes.

I believe that the main reason we don't have up-to-date technology in dashcams is price. Many (or most) of us cannot justify spending more than a few hundred dollars on cams for one vehicle. So would you spend that same money on one 4K cam in front or is it more wise to get two or more HD cams that are still good enough instead? That same problem extends to the cam manufacturers. They will not invest in creating a product which will not profit them with rapid sales.

The action cam market is different than ours even if the hardware is similar. People who can afford a $2K drone "toy" can afford better cams than the average car driver. I do like to see progress but until I can afford it I am a spectator, not a player on the field.

Phil

I agree Phil. I don't think the type of camera we're describing here is for everyone. There's absolutely no doubt the best selling cam will retail around $ / £ 50-100 through some major well known high street brand. I'm pretty sure, the market for a $ / £ 150-200 cam is a much smaller one for those who want the best. That said, with action cams, some far eastern manufacturers have run GoPro close in performance for between $100-200 showing that maybe with lower manufacturing costs (labour etc) it is maybe possible to use top components and not have excessive price tags.

Current A119 has better video than most of the top tier Korean cameras but people still buy those, price isn't always a good performance indicator

I agree. I'd hazard a guess that comes down to advertising (I'm guessing mostly motor magazine and newspapers) and securing a foothold in major retailers inventories.

 

[Nigel]

For the start buyers will buy just because is printed 4K on the case and if they will be lucky and not bought a fake 4K dashcam, will think and hope and that 4K is better than QHD or FullHD. For sure some more details will be in the real 4K videos recorded by the real 4K cameras, but not 400% more details corresponding to 400% more resolution for 4K compared to Full HD.

Just look at the 4K GoPro lens. Some visible difference between an old Full HD GoPro and a new model 4K GoPro? The CMOS is 4K, the video is 4K as measurements so nobody will complain that the GoPro video is not 4K. So if GoPro is selling a lot, why not dashcam manufacturers to follow the same way?

enjoy,
Mtz

Actually, some of the action cameras are producing 4x the detail, not sure about Gopro since the Hero 6 seems to have a few issues, but the Yi 4K+ does have 4x the detail of a dashcam with 1080 sensor, except where it is more motion blurred because the sensor is not so sensitive.

Some of the latest 4K small sensors are now sensitive enough for dashcam use, maybe similar sensitivity to an IMX233, maybe next years will match an IMX 291 with the same size sensor, and then there will be no reason for not using them in dashcams other than price. Currently the biggest issue is that none of the dashcam processors can write a high enough bitrate to store the 4K detail, but that should change soon. If you want 4x the detail then you need 4x the bitrate, so around 100Mb/s. The Amberella A12 can't do that, and Novatek cant do it currently, the cameras that can are $300+, too much for a dashcam.

You can now buy a decent dashcam such as the B1W for under $50, and a very decent one such as the A119 for a little over $50. Not many people will want to spend $150 for a small improvement so our 4K 100Mb/s H265 dashcam needs to be around $100 and that is currently not possible. Maybe the A119Pro can be that price with its 2.5K video, but we need to wait a little longer for a Novatek 4K processor that can do 100Mb/s 4K for $100 before 4K dashcams really make sense. I don't think the lens is a big issue, look at the sharpness of the B1W lens and it is obvious that lens technology has already improved considerably in the last few years with glass aspheric elements becoming reasonably cheap instead of hugely expensive.

 

[Matt_V939]

well, I thinks dashcams have an additional issue which they need to overcome compared to action cameras, being a sloped glass in between with its dirt and reflections...
Moreover an action cam need just to capture near environment, what everybody are eager to get from dashcams are highly reflective faraway tiny plate numbers.

I think the only solution is a-la smartphone, dual lenses/sensor. Wide angle + zoom. Useless to spend much effort on 4k and 6k.

 

[Mtz]

you need 4x the bitrate, so around 100Mb/s

You can easy calculate how much video will enter on a card, here.
When you are recording some action with a 4K action camera you can think that 64GB are enough for 1.5 hours at 100mbps. But for a dashcam? Think if you will have some emergency files how much is reduced the space on the card. With an action camera is easy because you can easy replace the card when is some break in the action. With a dashcam you can not pull the car on the right and replace the card.
Because of such bitrates the dashcams will become what I said few years ago: a blackbox like the ones from airplanes. We will not take out the videos to look to not important things but only if some real event happened.

And now another new idea: the camera should have bluetooth for an emergency files transmission system. When camera have emergency files on the card and will interact with the bluetooth of the smartphone to make some beep or something just to make happen to transfer the emergency file to the smartphone by using wireless. In this way you will not take always care about the space from the black-box (dashcam). You just need to take care to wait until the transfer is finished and normally when you are starting the engine you will go for a trip which should be long enough to save a 2 minutes emergency video.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[c4rc4m]

Actually, some of the action cameras are producing 4x the detail, not sure about Gopro since the Hero 6 seems to have a few issues, but the Yi 4K+ does have 4x the detail of a dashcam with 1080 sensor, except where it is more motion blurred because the sensor is not so sensitive.

Some of the latest 4K small sensors are now sensitive enough for dashcam use, maybe similar sensitivity to an IMX233, maybe next years will match an IMX 291 with the same size sensor, and then there will be no reason for not using them in dashcams other than price. Currently the biggest issue is that none of the dashcam processors can write a high enough bitrate to store the 4K detail, but that should change soon. If you want 4x the detail then you need 4x the bitrate, so around 100Mb/s. The Amberella A12 can't do that, and Novatek cant do it currently, the cameras that can are $300+, too much for a dashcam.

You can now buy a decent dashcam such as the B1W for under $50, and a very decent one such as the A119 for a little over $50. Not many people will want to spend $150 for a small improvement so our 4K 100Mb/s H265 dashcam needs to be around $100 and that is currently not possible. Maybe the A119Pro can be that price with its 2.5K video, but we need to wait a little longer for a Novatek 4K processor that can do 100Mb/s 4K for $100 before 4K dashcams really make sense. I don't think the lens is a big issue, look at the sharpness of the B1W lens and it is obvious that lens technology has already improved considerably in the last few years with glass aspheric elements becoming reasonably cheap instead of hugely expensive.

Not sure I totally agree.

The Yi4K+ can be had for as little as £136 retail at some eshops and has a Ambrella H2 chipset, Cortex Arm 52 processor, Sony IMX377 sensor and can record 4K @ up to 135mbs.

I can't see the IMX377 listed in the sensor list I found on google, so I'm guessing it's not STARVIS and is an older sensor, albeit 12mp. However, given the chipset and processor appear to support 12mp @ 135mbs, I can't see why in principle it couldn't be paired with one of the newer STARVIS processors and a better lens, to maybe get closer to what we're looking for at the higher end. I'm going to hazard a guess again that if anything is preventing this it will be cost and maybe heat dissipation given that a dashcam records continuously. Have to wonder, for the latter, if a ribbed alu body that also acts as a heatsink isn't the answer. Again cost might be factor atm if the potential sensor and lens are pushing the budget too far. However, the fact that Yi can offer the 4K+ at a factory price that allows some retailers to resell at £136, obviously gives hope that maybe it might be possible to produce an upgraded version of the Yi spec in dashcam form for £200 or less.

 

[Nigel]

Not sure I totally agree.

The Yi4K+ can be had for as little as £136 retail at some eshops and has a Ambrella H2 chipset, Cortex Arm 52 processor, Sony IMX377 sensor and can record 4K @ up to 135mbs.

I can't see the IMX377 listed in the sensor list I found on google, so I'm guessing it's not STARVIS and is an older sensor, albeit 12mp. However, given the chipset and processor appear to support 12mp @ 135mbs, I can't see why in principle it couldn't be paired with one of the newer STARVIS processors and a better lens, to maybe get closer to what we're looking for at the higher end. I'm going to hazard a guess again that if anything is preventing this it will be cost and maybe heat dissipation given that a dashcam records continuously. Have to wonder, for the latter, if a ribbed alu body that also acts as a heatsink isn't the answer. Again cost might be factor atm if the potential sensor and lens are pushing the budget too far. However, the fact that Yi can offer the 4K+ at a factory price that allows some retailers to resell at £136, obviously gives hope that maybe it might be possible to produce an upgraded version of the Yi spec in dashcam form for £200 or less.

Hadn't realised the Yi had got that cheap, but given the original price they must have easily paid off the development cost by now! The IMX377 isn't quite up to low light dashcam use although it is not far off. I don't think it really has a heat problem, although it is probably a bit thirsty on power for use in parking mode - the more power it uses the faster the car battery goes flat, improving the heatsinks doesn't help that problem!

We are not far off a 4K dashcam making sense but there is no point the manufacturers making one until it will do a better job than the current FHD dashcams, however being first to produce a desirable specification can be worthwhile as Yi have shown with their 4K+ and GoPro used to show with their earlier Hero cameras.

 

[c4rc4m]

It was only one retailer Nigel, so it may just be a single person taking small profits. However, if someone can sell it for £136, then unless it's a copy or actually the Yi non + model mistakenly advertised as +, you'd have to presume they're making some profit which suggests the manufacturer is able to wholesale them for less.

 

[jokiin]

It was only one retailer Nigel, so it may just be a single person taking small profits. However, if someone can sell it for £136, then unless it's a copy or actually the Yi non + model mistakenly advertised as +, you'd have to presume they're making some profit which suggests the manufacturer is able to wholesale them for less.

more likely an error or a fraudulent listing