BlackboxMyCar PowerCell 8 Test & Review PP

[Panzer Platform]

Panzer, do you have any idea when there will be an updated PowerCell 8 that addresses some of your suggestions?

It would be better to get the answer straight from the horse's mouth.
@BlackboxMyCar Can you answer @jkxs question?
-Chuck

 

[jkxs]

@BlackboxMyCar I was told you are the horse's mouth - can you attest to this fact? When will you be releasing an updated PowerCell8 (since it is over 2 years old at this point) addressing Panzer's suggestions in the video here?

 

[BlackboxMyCar]

Hi there. Yes, the PowerCell 8 is coming up on 2 years old, and we've had some changes and improvements since then. Still, much of the feedback is newer, such as that video from Panzer platform from 11 months ago. While I may be the horse's mouth, big bodies turn slowly, which is especially true here, since for the sake of clarity, manufacturing is fully done through EGEN, the main manufacturer for all other high-quality battery packs like the B-130X and Thinkware Ivolt.

To be more specific about improvements over its life, the wiring has gone through multiple different iterations, as the cigarette lighter adapter did have issues on release with the heavy power draw of the battery. We tried out a few different cable options and are now using one that is very reliable, though still 14AWG, I believe.

It's more likely to see more big-picture improvements in future iterations, though it's still too early to say anything specific.

 

[Panzer Platform]

I was doing some testing on the @BlackboxMyCar PowerCell 8, and I was able to finally capture something on film I‘ve been meaning to for over a year, but was too lazy to set up a camera.
Q: What is the lowest indicated Voltage of the battery as reported by the APP just before it shuts off after being depleted by a dash cam in a 24 hour parking mode session?
A: 10.9 Volts
Interesting side note, when the battery is fully charged the indicated Voltage is 13.8V.

Q: Why is this significant, and why am I wasting your time?
A: The Viofo hardwire kit Low Voltage Cutoff (lowest setting is 11.8V).
This means when a Viofo dash cam is used with a PC8, B-130X, BAB-95 or similar the hardwire kit will premature shut off the camera even though there is a little bit of capacity left.

Back in July 2023 myself, and @rcg530 requested @viofo make a prototype hardwire kit with an additional setting to disable the Low Voltage Cutoff.
So users of dash cam battery backs can fully utilize all available capacity extending parking mode operation.
Well our prayers have been answered, and the prototype is in route, and should be here in 10-15 days.
Now I will be finally able to accurately measure exactly how much capacity (Wh) is left in a dash cam battery pack, (from 11.8V to 10.9V).
How exciting is that?
@safedrivesolutions @Nigel @ly-70mai @Jeff_Vantrue @Vortex Radar

 

[Nigel]

Now I will be finally able to accurately measure exactly how much capacity (Wh) is left in a dash cam battery pack, (from 11.8V to 10.9V).
How exciting is that?

When you say "exactly", note that the answer does depend on temperature, at +20°C, not very much, at -20°C, quite a lot, which in practice means that it depends on how warm the dash cam battery pack keeps its battery cells on a cold night, which in turn depends on how much power the dashcam is drawing. An exact answer is not really feasible!

Good to hear that we will soon be able to extract all the power that is available, however much that happens to be

 

[Panzer Platform]

When you say "exactly", note that the answer does depend on temperature, at +20°C, not very much, at -20°C, quite a lot, which in practice means that it depends on how warm the dash cam battery pack keeps its battery cells on a cold night, which in turn depends on how much power the dashcam is drawing. An exact answer is not really feasible!

Good to hear that we will soon be able to extract all the power that is available, however much that happens to be

Correct.
Temperature will affect run times.

I should have been more clear / specific for my wording of “exactly”.
Previously I have been making estimations on how much capacity is “left over” by letting the dash cam drain the battery pack in parking mode, and letting the 11.8V Low Voltage Cutoff shut off the camera.
Then connecting a load with a known wattage consumption to the battery pack to fully drain the battery without any low voltage cutoff device, and then calculating the run time to get the approximate “left over” Wh capacity.
Now with the prototype hardwire kit, no faffing is required, and I can just let the dash cam fully drain the battery pack.
So, this should me more accurate than my previous estimations.

 

[Panzer Platform]

In preparation for the Viofo prototype Hardwire Kit, (capable of disabling Low Voltage Cutoff in 3-wire operation) I ramped up my efforts to more accurately determine the remaining Wh capacity a regular Viofo Hardwire Kit is unable to deliver because the lowest cutoff is 11.8 Volts.
The BBMC PC8 is capable of delivering power down to approximately 10.9 Volts.
My goal is to measure the Wh capacity while the battery pack discharges from 11.8V down to 10.9V.
I performed three parking mode run time tests with the A229 Pro 2-CH Rear.
At the end of the parking mode sessions, (16-18 hours) I tried to measure the “left over” capacity with a regular Viofo Hardwire Kit in 2-wire configuration.
Combining the red & yellow wires disables all low voltage cutoff settings.
However, this operates the camera in normal recording mode.
The A229 Pro would not enter parking mode reliably after 6 minutes of “no activity”.
This complicates the power consumption calculation because normal recording is around 6 Watts, Low Bitrate is around 5.2 Watts.
I made it easy on myself and used a fixed wattage load.
I used a 194AK automotive mini bulb that measures a constant 3.24 Watts.
After the last parking mode session was complete I connected the bulb directly to the PC8, and monitored the run time.
The PC8 illuminated the bulb for 44 minutes before powering down.
This means the approximate left over capacity is 2.4 Wh.
44 Minutes = .73 Hours
3.24 Watts x .73 Hours = 2.4 Wh
Estimated additional run time with Viofo prototype Hardwire Kit;
A119 Mini 2 Low Bitrate (2.2 Watts) = 1 Hour 06 Minutes
A229 Pro 2-CH Rear Low Bitrate (5.2 Watts) = 0 Hour 28 Minutes
Let’s see how accurate these estimates are after I receive & test the prototype.

 

[VIOFO-Support]

Combining the red & yellow wires disables all low voltage cutoff settings.
However, this operates the camera in normal recording mode.
The A229 Pro would not enter parking mode reliably after 6 minutes of “no activity”.

The camera can only enter parking mode after 5 minutes of no activity with the original car charger cable. If you use the hardwire kit to supply constant power, the camera will record in normal mode all the way.

 

[DashCamUser123]

Here’s my improvement wish list for the second generation PC8.
I shall refer to it as the “PowerCell 9000”. Lol

Wow, awesome video. I am a typical dashcam and external battery user who likes to plug and play. Don't pay too much attention to the technical stuff. Only when something doesn't work properly do I come here to ask questions or do some research. The info found in this forum is truly educational and I must visit more often.

I just read below a post from BBMyCar about the first gen PowerCell 8 and issues with the cig-adapter. Had no idea but like new digital camera buyers, the early adopters have to deal with any growing pains. I purchased a PowerCell 8 in November 2023 so assume the cig-adapter issue has been fixed.

You gave me an idea to maybe use that USB port to run a second dashcam (say, a Viofo A129) thru it while my Viofo A139 3-Channel (sometimes 2 channel only) is drawing from the PowerCell 8. Or I can just use an external power source like the one you displayed in the video. I currently use INIU powerbanks to run GoPro, Akaso, etc.

Interesting to hear there will be dashcam battery packs coming out from other manufacturers that will have 7500, the same as the PowerCell 8 has right now.

 

[GPak]

Cold Temperature Charge Test

At the genius request on my man @Lothar I decided to perform another one of my useless experiments is the name of Doc Brown.

I discharged the PC8 to 0% and recorded it’s “standing room temperature” at 61℉ (16℃). I then placed the PC8 in my freezer which is -11℉ (-23℃), (don’t tell my wife I used two of her good freezer bags).

After one hour on my wife’s hamhock I measured the temperature of the PC8 at 12℉ (-11℃). This is below the PC8’s listed operating specification 14°F - 158°F (-10°C - 70°C) however I only wanted to do this test once, so I let it be for another hour.

After two hours in the freezer I measured the PC8’s temp at 5℉ (-15℃) this is approximately a few degrees warmer than the blank stare of disbelief I received from my wife when she caught me red handed putting electronics in the freezer next to her leftovers. Satisfied this would be cold enough to perform my charge test I narrowly escaped her clutches on my way to the sanctuary of my garage.

I quickly set up the PC8 for a charge cycle by selecting the HIGH charge profile, and connected it to my Variable Power Supply and adjusted it to 14.6 Volts / 10 Amps to give it full beans. All ready to go the PC8 warmed up to 7℉ (-13℃), as I engaged the Variable Power Supply. Under normal temp conditions the current / amperage starts around 8 Amps, and climbs to 9 Amps. But this time something different happened. The amperage was rapidly fluctuating between 0.8 Amps to 1.6 Amps. I filmed a 60 second video showing this. I’ll put a link to the video at the bottom.

I checked in with the Cellink Neo Plus APP to see what the indicated temp of the PC8 was. At the start of the charge cycle it reported -4℉ (-20℃). After two minutes of charging it reported 6℉ (-14℃). After obtaining these test results I discontinued the charge cycle to let it reach thermal equilibrium with my garage ambient temp.

So what can we takeaway from this poorly created, and unscientific experiment? It appears the PC8 has a low temperature charging strategy that prevents it from charging at full amperage when it’s below the listed operating temp specifications.

I am currently banned from performing future PC8 experiments with my wife’s kitchen appliances. If anyone asks me to perform a high temp charge test by baking the PC8 in the oven at 350℉ for 45 minutes you will have to wait until my wife leaves to visit her mother for Thanksgiving.
-Chuck

Rapidly fluctuating current from 0.8 to 1.6 A at temperatures below -10°C does not seem like a low temperature charging strategy, it seems like some kind of strange behavior/malfunction, no one in their right mind would come up with such an “ingenious” design .
Unfortunately, you stopped the test at the most interesting stage, such as at what current it will charge in the range from 0 to -10°C (part of the stated normal operating range).
If at full speed or so, then the PC8 does not have low temp protection.

 

[Panzer Platform]

Rapidly fluctuating current from 0.8 to 1.6 A

Did you see the BlackVue B-130X?

 

[GPak]

Did you see the BlackVue B-130X?

Now this is what sub-freezing charge protection should be.
Reading this forum it looks like both Batteries are designed by the same company, so the question is, how-come one has proper protection and the other doesn't?

 

[Panzer Platform]

Reading this forum it looks like both Batteries are designed by the same company, so the question is, how-come one has proper protection and the other doesn't?

Correct.
Both are made by EGEN Korea.
PC8 Release Date: September 2021
B-130X Release Date: December 2022
My dumb guess is the BMS in the B-130X has a “newer” firmware, or strategy.
The PC8 is capable of accepting firmware updates.
Maybe this can be fixed with a firmware update.
@BlackboxMyCar can you confirm?

 

[BlackboxMyCar]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

Speaking with our battery specialists, the amperage of the PC8 should not fluctuate like that at lower temperatures, and the hardware itself should be incredibly similar to that of the B-130X, so there shouldn't be differences in this regard.

We'll follow up with EGEN to see if this issue is solvable with Firmware, which is most likely.

 

[BlackboxMyCar]

Hello all!

So we did actually hear back from EGEN, and I'd like to share some of the findings here, and summarize their thoughts.

First off, you're not crazy, the PC8 and B-130X battery packs do have different systems to measure the heat of the battery. As for how it works, the B130X battery uses a "Fuel Gauge" chipset, fitted with LiFePO4 batteries, while the PC8 uses a BLE CPU to calculate this data. Please understand that both methods have a margin of error, and it is impossible to say which method is correct.

If a battery cell freezes due to low temperatures, it may not charge effectively at first. However, when a circuit connected to this cell is activated and starts generating heat, it can help thaw the frozen cell, allowing it to function more efficiently. Despite this improvement, the overall performance impact may be negligible because the circuit's operation remains consistent, whether the cell was initially frozen or not. This will operate in the same way between both batteries, but it may feel different because there is only a difference in how this data is shown between both methods (Fuel-Gauge vs CPU calculation)

You are correct, the B130X will not charge when the fuel-gauge specifically is at 0℃. The B130X can't even output if charging is blocked at a temperature below -1℃. Furthermore, it will not supply power to the camera in those temperatures either. The PC8 (along with other EGEN batteries) will also not accept charge when in this state, even if the charging circuit still has power flowing through it.
In other words, if the B130X battery is frozen and the charging start temperature is not reached, the dash cam will also not work, which means the camera will fail to function.

The most important criteria of a battery pack is to supply power to the camera, and supply evidence if there's an accident while parked, that safety and security of the vehicle can be viewed as more important than the life of the battery cell, as the car is hundreds of times more expensive than the battery.

While the B-130X battery offers less coverage in cold situations, it prioritizes the battery's health over the camera, while other EGEN batteries prioritize parking protection and dash cam coverage, potentially affecting the battery's life span.

We can understand the benefit of the other perspective, and will discuss internally the option of taking this other stance with a firmware update, which should be possible.

 

[Panzer Platform]

Hello all!

So we did actually hear back from EGEN, and I'd like to share some of the findings here, and summarize their thoughts.

First off, you're not crazy, the PC8 and B-130X battery packs do have different systems to measure the heat of the battery. As for how it works, the B130X battery uses a "Fuel Gauge" chipset, fitted with LiFePO4 batteries, while the PC8 uses a BLE CPU to calculate this data. Please understand that both methods have a margin of error, and it is impossible to say which method is correct.

If a battery cell freezes due to low temperatures, it may not charge effectively at first. However, when a circuit connected to this cell is activated and starts generating heat, it can help thaw the frozen cell, allowing it to function more efficiently. Despite this improvement, the overall performance impact may be negligible because the circuit's operation remains consistent, whether the cell was initially frozen or not. This will operate in the same way between both batteries, but it may feel different because there is only a difference in how this data is shown between both methods (Fuel-Gauge vs CPU calculation)

You are correct, the B130X will not charge when the fuel-gauge specifically is at 0℃. The B130X can't even output if charging is blocked at a temperature below -1℃. Furthermore, it will not supply power to the camera in those temperatures either. The PC8 (along with other EGEN batteries) will also not accept charge when in this state, even if the charging circuit still has power flowing through it.
In other words, if the B130X battery is frozen and the charging start temperature is not reached, the dash cam will also not work, which means the camera will fail to function.

The most important criteria of a battery pack is to supply power to the camera, and supply evidence if there's an accident while parked, that safety and security of the vehicle can be viewed as more important than the life of the battery cell, as the car is hundreds of times more expensive than the battery.

While the B-130X battery offers less coverage in cold situations, it prioritizes the battery's health over the camera, while other EGEN batteries prioritize parking protection and dash cam coverage, potentially affecting the battery's life span.

We can understand the benefit of the other perspective, and will discuss internally the option of taking this other stance with a firmware update, which should be possible.

Thank you for the update.
To summarize: My findings from last year’s testing the B-130X’s cold weather charge protection strategy is slightly more advanced than the PC8 is confirmed & verified.

The core issue at hand is; can the B-130X’s cold weather charge protection strategy be added to the PC8 with a firmware update?
If not, this should be added to the next “Gen 2” PC8.
When battery temp is below 0 °C there shall be no amperage activity just like the B-130X.
-Chuck

 

[GPak]

...... the B130X will not charge when the fuel-gauge specifically is at 0℃. The B130X can't even output if charging is blocked at a temperature below -1℃. Furthermore, it will not supply power to the camera in those temperatures either. The PC8 (along with other EGEN batteries) will also not accept charge when in this state, even if the charging circuit still has power flowing through it.
In other words, if the B130X battery is frozen and the charging start temperature is not reached, the dash cam will also not work, which means the camera will fail to function.

Per above statement, B130X will not power DVR at subfreezing temps, which is not really good.
While protecting LFP battery from charging at sub-freezing temps is a right thing to do, it should not come on expense of not being able to power DVR at the same time.
LFP batteries can be happily discharged at subfreezing temperature, especially with such a low power draw as DVR.
Low temp protection for charging and discharging should be decoupled i.e. independent.
For charging it should be set to 0°C, and for discharging could be around say -15°C.
All power stations I worked with have low temp protection as I described.
Couple of smart BMS which I use for my LTO battery have independent low temp protection settings for charging and discharging, although for LTO, I don’t really need it.
If decoupling is not possible for whatever reason, then I personally would prefer to allow subfreezing trickle charge, say at 0.5A if possible, to allow power to DVR.
Yes the battery will degrade faster, but as you correctly mentioned car is much more expensive.

Another solution is to completely bypass power to DVR when ignition is ON.
In this case DVR will work at low temps and even if something fails inside the battery pack.

Like I explain in my latest LTO video here:

LTO (Lithium Titanate Oxide) – The Ultimate Battery for Dash-Cam parking recording (DIY)

The first video:

dashcamtalk.com

 

[GPak]

.....
To summarize: My findings from last year’s testing the B-130X’s cold weather charge protection strategy is slightly more advanced than the PC8 is confirmed & verified.
The core issue at hand is; can the B-130X’s cold weather charge protection strategy be added to the PC8 with a firmware update?
If not, this should be added to the next “Gen 2” PC8.
When battery temp is below 0 °C there shall be no amperage activity just like the B-130X.
-Chuck

Nothing is advanced about B130X low temp protection, completely cutting power to DVR at -1°C.
Ref. my post #97 above

 

[DashCamUser123]

While the B-130X battery.....prioritizes the battery's health over the camera, while other EGEN batteries prioritize parking protection and dash cam coverage, potentially affecting the battery's life span.

We can understand the benefit of the other perspective, and will discuss internally the option of taking this other stance with a firmware update, which should be possible.

Any estimate on how much of the P8's life span it can affect?

 

[Panzer Platform]

Any estimate on how much of the P8's life span it can affect?

BBMC won’t be back in the office until Monday to give you an answer.
In the meantime you can answer your own question by google searching; “lithium iron phosphate cold charging”.
I could just tell you the answer but, it's different when you look things up yourself.