VIOFO A119 Mini 2 - Test and Review RCG

[Dashmellow]

I remember @Mtz saying one of the reasons Viofo dash cams have such good image quality was the use of a high quality lens.
I wonder if they have started using a lower quality lens as a cost saving measure?

No, that's not how it works, Panz. Lenses themselves don't generally go out of focus in direct sunlight. The problem is almost always in the lens mount module. Metal lens barrels are the most dimensionally stable in high heat but many in today's cameras are made of FRP (Fiber Reinforced Plastic) while fairly stable tends not to be so stable when compared to cast aluminum ones, Could be there was a part change with the lens module whatever it is/was made of but I suspect the lens is up to the usual Viofo high standards, especially with a new sensor of this caliber.

 

[gse]

Matrices can be conditionally divided into "hot" and "cold" imx 675 conditionally "hot."

In 2017, I suggested to Viofo to put metal lens holders, when I discovered this problem on 119 S, Viofo checked it, the plastic was changed to metal and the problem was solved, but then they began to put plastic holders on all models again.
99.9% of the problem is plastic holders.
I have a metal holder from old stocks installed on my Mini 2, there are no problems from the word at all.

P.S. I think that it is necessary to return to the installation of metal holders on all models of Viofo DVR and we will forget what defocus is!

 

[JDtime]

Over the past few weeks of testing the A119 Mini 2, I've found that the new lens used in the A119 Mini 2 compared to the one in the A119 Mini will lose focus clarity as it is exposed to normal use in direct sunlight. I've tested a preproduction unit, a replacement production unit sent to me by VIOFO and a production unit that I purchased from Amazon. All three had varying levels of this problem. All three were out of focus to some degree when cool as well. I've been submitting info to VIOFO and they are investigating the issue. For now, I'm suspending my review of the A119 Mini 2 until I have feedback from VIOFO on when this will be corrected. I really like the A119 Mini 2 with its new Sony STARVIS 2 IMX675 image sensor and the addition of voice commands.

Here are a couple of screenshots from today's driving trip (warm outside temps in the low 80s F to start and low to mid 90s at the end). This A119 Mini 2 doesn't start off with too bad of a focus when cool, but definitely gets worse as it's exposed to my heat/sunlight.

Near the start of my trip / Just after the third parking mode session - High bitrate, CPL installed, HDR Off
View attachment 66503 View attachment 66502

Other Dash Cameras near the start of the trip
BlackVue DR970X / Thinkware U3000 / Vantrue N5
View attachment 66505View attachment 66504View attachment 66506

I noticed that when I was watching a few compare vids on youtube from members here. Times where mini 1 was way more in focus vs the mini 2. Its what actually caused me to cancel my prime day order of the mini 2.

 

[speeedy]

Over the past few weeks of testing the A119 Mini 2, I've found that the new lens used in the A119 Mini 2 compared to the one in the A119 Mini will lose focus clarity as it is exposed to normal use in direct sunlight. I've tested a preproduction unit, a replacement production unit sent to me by VIOFO and a production unit that I purchased from Amazon. All three had varying levels of this problem. All three were out of focus to some degree when cool as well. I've been submitting info to VIOFO and they are investigating the issue. For now, I'm suspending my review of the A119 Mini 2 until I have feedback from VIOFO on when this will be corrected. I really like the A119 Mini 2 with its new Sony STARVIS 2 IMX675 image sensor and the addition of voice commands.

Here are a couple of screenshots from today's driving trip (warm outside temps in the low 80s F to start and low to mid 90s at the end). This A119 Mini 2 doesn't start off with too bad of a focus when cool, but definitely gets worse as it's exposed to my heat/sunlight.

Near the start of my trip / Just after the third parking mode session - High bitrate, CPL installed, HDR Off
View attachment 66503 View attachment 66502

Other Dash Cameras near the start of the trip
BlackVue DR970X / Thinkware U3000 / Vantrue N5
View attachment 66505View attachment 66504View attachment 66506

Great update @rcg530

I noticed when I got the camera, I had moments where I was wowed by the quality and other moments where I was saying "this is alright but doesnt look 1440p to me"

Your post update confirmed the small hunch I had. So I went and checked some footage of mine to see that I am having the exact same issue you have described. Bought when the camera came out on Amazon.

My current settings are 2560x1080p, 30fps, HDR ON, High Bitrate, and CPL installed. (I chose 2560x1080p because I don't need footage of my hood and the sky, plus the bitrate is constant in this mode). Additionally, I also cropped out my gps coordinates before posting here.

First screenshot is when the camera is "cool" and I have parked at the gym.



Now this one is about 90 minutes later in the same location. Temperature outside was around 86F to 88F. I haven't hardwired my cam yet so Parking Mode was OFF. No tint on windshield, but have pretty dark tint on all other windows and had the sunroof tilted open as an heat exhaust. Regardless, the inside of the car was still pretty hot when I entered.



Here is a side by side zoomed in comparison:

I think the circle shows the issue adequately

Here are another screenshots but driving. First one is the "cool" one before I got to the gym. Second one is the "hot" one driving from the gym after 90minutes in the heat. I tried to line up the distance between the car in front of me as closely as possible between the two pictures.




Side by Side comparison between the two



Will be following this thread closely to see what updates you get from Viofo. Thanks again for posting your update and suspending your review until this gets addressed

 

[Panzer Platform]

@viofo @VIOFO-Support
1.) Why does the camera lose focus after 90 minutes of operation?
2.) Is this a hardware, or software malfunction?
3.) How come the original A119 Mini does not have this issue?
4.) Does this mean you need to recall all A119 Mini 2's sold so far?

 

[Dashmellow]

@viofo @VIOFO-Support
1.) Why does the camera lose focus after 90 minutes of operation?
2.) Is this a hardware, or software malfunction?
3.) How come the original A119 Mini does not have this issue?
4.) Does this mean you need to recall all A119 Mini 2's sold so far?

This is a hardware issue, not a "software malfunction". Dash cam firmware has no ability to affect a focus problem. As I mentioned above, I believe the issue is likely a problem with the lens holder warping in the heat.

Basically, heat is causing an expansion of the lens holder, or a warping of the sensor plate that is making the lens go out of focus. When the camera cools down the focus will return to normal. There are situations where once this happens the camera's focus never goes back to normal, although this has become less common in today's cameras from what I can see.

This is a common problem that has plagued dash cams for many years. I have been experiencing this issue for the 13 years I have owned dash cams and the problem has to do with the basic design of dash cameras which is more closely related to your average GameBoy than an actual camera. (i.e: a circuit board and a screen (and lens) screwed into a simple plastic housing and thus subject to contraction and expansion distortions from heat and cold). Dash cams are basically consumer gadgets more than they are "real" cameras. "Real" cameras are built with a rigid chassis and housings and also use other measures to dispel heat and establish stability. Think DSLRs, CCTV cams, even point & shoots.

I have been commenting on this issue for years and have a lot to say about it and what can be done about it. I will post more about this when I get some time to offer a more cogent and comprehensive post.

In the meantime, I would just like to say that I am aware and appreciate that @viofo has put a lot of work into dealing with overheating issues in their cameras with heat sinks and other techniques, perhaps more-so than some other manufacturers but it looks like this particular model needs some more work.

 

[gse]

@viofo @VIOFO-Support
1.) Why does the camera lose focus after 90 minutes of operation?
2.) Is this a hardware, or software malfunction?
3.) How come the original A119 Mini does not have this issue?
4.) Does this mean you need to recall all A119 Mini 2's sold so far?

1) These are the laws of physics, when heated, objects expand, the plastic holder expands, the lens shifts relative to the matrix by microns and we get out of focus.
2) This is a hardware problem, it is required to replace the plastic holder with metal ones.
3) The mini has a metal holder !
All DVR with a plastic holder have this problem, somewhere more, somewhere less, the laws of physics cannot be canceled, and just a non-specialist will not see it, or they will tell him that it should be so.
It shouldn't be like that!
4)...... ???

I raised this problem in 2017 with the dvr 119S, it was hard to prove, but Viofo was able to hear and change the terms of reference.
You can look through the 119S thread for reference.

 

[gse]

I have a big question for Viofo engineers and technicians, a metal holder was installed on the mini , why did they change the terms of reference? why did they begin to install plastic holders on mini 2 ?, I have more questions, while I refrain, what will Viofo answer.

 

[Rsx5]

Is this something of a concern for mini2 owners because we don't want to be stuck with a device that will underperform and it's picture quality will depend on how hot it is. I would rather return it while I can I get something that it's proven to work properly.

 

[Nigel]

Is this something of a concern for mini2 owners because we don't want to be stuck with a device that will underperform and it's picture quality will depend on how hot it is. I would rather return it while I can I get something that it's proven to work properly.

Does your's show the problem?

One person having heat related issues in California doesn't mean that every camera would have the same issues or that everyone would have the same heat issues with that particular camera. Heat related issues often depend on the car more than anything else, some cars get much hotter than others.

All cameras suffer to some degree with excessive temperatures, so unless you are actually having a problem then I wouldn't be concerned about it, it is not something that will get worse with use.

So what percentage of Mini 2 owners are having any significant heat issues?

I have a big question for Viofo engineers and technicians, a metal holder was installed on the mini , why did they change the terms of reference? why did they begin to install plastic holders on mini 2 ?, I have more questions, while I refrain, what will Viofo answer.

Metal is not always the best, all metals expand with heat, if you want something that is extremely stable with heat then carbon fibre reinforced plastic is the best, that can actually have negative expansion if you want it to. What is most important is that the holder is well matched to the lens, so if one goes out of focus then the other corrects the focus, and Viofo normally get that right these days. It is perfectly possible that the issue here is internal to the lens and nothing to do with the holder, or maybe more likely to one batch of lenses. Or it could be something silly, like these new Starvis 2 sensors being more power efficient and not producing enough heat to keep the mount and lens balanced at high temperatures!

 

[Rsx5]

Does your's show the problem?

One person having heat related issues in California doesn't mean that every camera would have the same issues or that everyone would have the same heat issues with that particular camera. Heat related issues often depend on the car more than anything else, some cars get much hotter than others.

All cameras suffer to some degree with excessive temperatures, so unless you are actually having a problem then I wouldn't be concerned about it, it is not something that will get worse with use.

So what percentage of Mini 2 owners are having any significant heat issues?


Metal is not always the best, all metals expand with heat, if you want something that is extremely stable with heat then carbon fibre reinforced plastic is the best, that can actually have negative expansion if you want it to. What is most important is that the holder is well matched to the lens, so if one goes out of focus then the other corrects the focus, and Viofo normally get that right these days. It is perfectly possible that the issue here is internal to the lens and nothing to do with the holder, or maybe more likely to one batch of lenses. Or it could be something silly, like these new Starvis 2 sensors being more power efficient and not producing enough heat to keep the mount and lens balanced at high temperatures!

I haven't noticed any issues but I also didn't really check for video anomalies,mine seems to work fine. I was just asking because I read these posts about it here. I appreciate your explanation.

 

[gse]

Does your's show the problem?

My mini has no problems, to be more careful, I wrote that I have a metal holder installed.
I didn't check it for out of focus. was immediately replaced by a metal holder.

There is no need to persuade me, I remember how they tried to tell me that everything is fine with 119S. I can say again, there are no problems with metal. This is a rake that cannot be stepped on.
For example, I don’t remember the problems with StreetGuardian, can you tell me why?

 

[Nigel]

For example, I don’t remember the problems with StreetGuardian, can you tell me why?

Probably because they are Australian and so during development they tested to rather higher temperatures than anyone else!
But I don't think the fact that they used metal lens holders proves that metal is the best. It is not that simple.

 

[Dashmellow]

Probably because they are Australian and so during development they tested to rather higher temperatures than anyone else!
But I don't think the fact that they used metal lens holders proves that metal is the best. It is not that simple.

Get your facts straight!

There are literally dozens of threads on this forum about Street Guardian cameras, especially the SG9665GC going out of focus in hot weather. I will link to a few examples here for your edification.

It was a huge problem for SG, but one that Jokiin and Street Guardian repeatedly denied was as prevalent as it was in light of the countless reports about the issue in about two dozen threads on the subject.
Typically for Street Guardian they fixed the problem and then acted like the issue never existed in the first place.

The fact of the matter was that Street Guardian was finally able to address the problem by switching to a metal lens holder after "experimenting" with FPR lens holders in their cameras.

New SG9665GC v3 extremely blurry

New SG9665GC v3. Extremely blurry. Is this defective, expected, or am I missing something? Thank you for your help. Windshield very clean.

dashcamtalk.com

Blurry SG9665GC

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dashcamtalk.com

Street Guardian SG9665GC is very blurry

I was looking at my dash cam recordings and noticed that the videos has became very blurry since the last time I looked, I made sure the window was clean, the lens was clean as well, took the CPL off, no change. Is there anything I can do or am I screwed and have to spend another $200 ish for a...

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SG9665GC V2 getting blurry when hot?

Today as I was screening my SG9665GC V2 videos, I noticed that the picture of today morning's videos was fine, but the ones taken in the afternoon were quite blurry. I double-checked with older recordings, and there suspiciously often were blurry images when the videos were taken on a bright...

dashcamtalk.com

 

[Dashmellow]

Metal is not always the best, all metals expand with heat, if you want something that is extremely stable with heat then carbon fibre reinforced plastic is the best, that can actually have negative expansion if you want it to. What is most important is that the holder is well matched to the lens, so if one goes out of focus then the other corrects the focus, and Viofo normally get that right these days. It is perfectly possible that the issue here is internal to the lens and nothing to do with the holder, or maybe more likely to one batch of lenses. Or it could be something silly, like these new Starvis 2 sensors being more power efficient and not producing enough heat to keep the mount and lens balanced at high temperature

Metal lens holders (which are made of cast aluminum) are far more dimensionally stable in heat than plastic holders. That's why many car engines are made of cast aluminum.

Fiber Reinforced Plastic (FRP) holders have been shown to be problematic in some dash cams ( but not always). Firstly, most of them are generally not made with "carbon fibre" as you stated but with fiberglass. Some of these plastic holders coming out of China are rather cheaply made and that can be a problem. Apparently, the tensile strength of fiber reinforced plastic is affected by the size, shape, smoothness and quality of the fibers used in their manufacture along with the quality of the plastic resin they use. Carbon fiber has a better track record but the same factors apply to how strong and dimensionally stable it will be, but I don't think I've seen an M12 lens holder actually made with carbon fiber.

It is highly unlikely that a high quality lens will go out of focus due to the lens elements warping inside a metal barrel. If it did that the elements would de-laminate and it would never go back into focus. The damage would be permanent and obvious.

As I mentioned earlier, one of the reasons dash cams have been known to go out of focus in hot weather is because the plate the sensor is mounted on warps due to high heat. The sensor already gets pretty hot just by itself when operating.

We witnessed this firsthand with the original Mobius "C" lens. A new "C2" lens was introduced with an improved higher quality lens holder with a thicker fiber reinforced plate behind the sensor and this solved the problem. The new C2 lens will take as much heat as you can throw at it.

 

[gse]

Probably because they are Australian and so during development they tested to rather higher temperatures than anyone else!

There is no need to be a magician, it is enough to conduct a test. The manufacturer must look ahead, must anticipate that their product will be used in Australia, India or the far north, and not just at room temperature, especially since this lesson was already taken six years ago.

 

[Dashmellow]

I mentioned earlier that dash cameras are more like consumer gadgets than "real" cameras because they are basically nothing more than a circuit board and other components screwed into a thin plastic housing but "real" cameras are built with a rigid chassis and incorporate measures to insure stability and solid focus in challenging conditions.

Eventually, I hope to post a thorough explanation of what I am getting at here but my premise is this. If dash cams were built to the standards of CCTV cameras they could withstand any amount of heat or cold along with shocks and vibrations.

CCTV cameras are made with many of the very same lenses, sensors, chip-sets and other internal components as dash cams and many are in the same price range. These cameras run 24/7 for months or years on end. They are hermetically sealed against moisture and thus have no ventilation. Yet somehow, they can sit baking in direct hot sun all day and never go out of focus. If dash cams were to take some design cues from CCTV cameras many of the heat problems and other issues we chronically encounter with dash cams would disappear.

 

[Nigel]

Metal lens holders (which are made of cast aluminum) are far more dimensionally stable in heat than plastic holders. That's why many car engines are made of cast aluminum.

I thought the good ones were made of special steel, which has about a third the coefficient of expansion of aluminium, which is one of the worst metals other than plutonium! Even standard mild steel is half that of aluminium.

Car engines don't have a problem with expansion, as long as everything expands together. Aluminium is used because an aluminium engine is about half the weight of a cast iron one, and that gives better performance.

 

[Dashmellow]

I thought the good ones were made of special steel, which has about a third the coefficient of expansion of aluminium, which is one of the worst metals other than plutonium! Even standard mild steel is half that of aluminium.

Car engines don't have a problem with expansion, as long as everything expands together. Aluminium is used because an aluminium engine is about half the weight of a cast iron one, and that gives better performance.

I don't know what you "thought" but as is so often the case your replies are a distraction from the original subject at hand and that is that metal lens holders are superior to FRP ones in dash cams.

And what the hell is "special steel"? Steel components are generally milled but dash cam lens holders appear to be cast with only the threads milled, which is why they are made with aluminum alloy.

 

[gse]

CCTV cameras are made with many of the very same lenses, sensors, chip-sets and other internal components as dash cams and many are in the same price range. These cameras run 24/7

When there were no original holders, I took apart several broken CCTV cameras, they all had a metal holder (alloy), but they did not fit Viofo in size.