Passthrough charging of power banks

reverend

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OK gents here's one for you battery geeks :)

The way I misunderstood passthrough charging was that you could charge a power bank while it was also providing charge to downlevel devices (where there was sufficient power in the battery) - I know it's not recommended but I thought it was a valid short term use case.

Basically as a test while I'm waiting for my new cameras and BDPs to arrive I figured I could get a power bank, hook it up to the 2.1a Schosche charger and then hook the dash cams into the power bank and it would run until the power bank went dry.

I ordered the newly released Anker 2nd gen E4 13,000mAh power bank from Amazon and it arrived last week.

Now the old devices did support passthrough (although not recommended) but this one just flat out doesn't seem to.

I've tested an A118 camera in the power bank and it will run for >24 hours (the last test was a full charge on an iPhone 5s from flat to 100% and the camera then ran for 22 hours and 4 mins).

When I did the first tests in the car I found that actually anything connected to the power bank would turn off when the car was started.

I've now done more testing and can confirm that's exactly what it does - as soon as the Anker has power applied to the 2.1a input it then won't supply any power to the outputs. Remove the input and the dash cams then turn back on via the outputs.

I've got it charging now to see if it will start to feed the outputs as soon as it's fully charged, but as things look the Anker 2nd gen E4 does not support passthrough charging.
 
I've now done more testing and can confirm that's exactly what it does - as soon as the Anker has power applied to the 2.1a input it then won't supply any power to the outputs. Remove the input and the dash cams then turn back on via the outputs.
My old PowerTraveller is even worse than that, plug the charging cable in and it turns off the output but after charging you then have to press the on button for 3 seconds to get output power back.

What I would want for a dashcam is for the battery to always provide power to the camera unless it is not receiving power and the battery is empty. Fit and forget and it always provides power when parked. It's not realistic though since even if the power bank can provide power for 24 hours when fully charged, there is no way to fully charge it in the time the engine is running. I guess a typical power bank can charge about 2 minutes of camera power per minute on charge?

If that is what you want to do then a better solution would be a second car battery that can charge 24 hours of power in 24 minutes and a caravan style charger so that the camera can't flatten the main battery, or just use the main battery with a device to turn off power below a set voltage. Or, if you have a permanently on cigar lighter socket, a lighter socket to USB adaptor with built in switch off below a set voltage.
 
great they have a separate section for this discussion.

I don't know much about "pass through" charging. I just don't see how that is safe in a vehicle.

charging the cells produces heat because the charging process is not 100% efficient, then you have discharge going at the same time, thereby producing MORE heat.

I still think getting a second power bank and swapping out after X hours of use is the best policy. heat is the biggest enemy of cells.
 
Yeah it was just for a short term fix to be honest and I'm not a massive fan of reconnecting everything everytime I get in or out of the car.

Multiple power banks is definitely the way longer term if you don't want to use a BDP, I totally agree there.

Passthrough isn't ideal but the specs of the Anker device said it will use up to 2.1a for charging itself, so should get itself charged up in about six hours and with the travelling I do figured it would be cutting it fine but it would do - but seeing as it doesn't support pass through it's totally out of the window!
 
the specs of the Anker device said it will use up to 2.1a for charging itself
There is nothing wrong with pass through, that is what happens in the camera with it's own battery, but if you add 2A of pass through to that 2.1A for charging then you would be overloading any USB power source and cable - I guess that is the reason it doesn't allow it.
 
I did read somewhere that some devices that do passthrough have the ability to change the mode of the cells in that it can just charge some while using the others to supply power output - if they did it that way I guess at least the cable wouldn't be overloaded?
 
I did read somewhere that some devices that do passthrough have the ability to change the mode of the cells in that it can just charge some while using the others to supply power output - if they did it that way I guess at least the cable wouldn't be overloaded?
True, it would be like an automatic version of having two batteries and charging one while using the other, after swapping over a few times you could get both fairly full.
 
I did read somewhere that some devices that do passthrough have the ability to change the mode of the cells in that it can just charge some while using the others to supply power output - if they did it that way I guess at least the cable wouldn't be overloaded?

I can't imagine where you read something like that since such a practice would create a very dangerous situation. These battery packs require that the individual cell voltages be carefully balanced and they have special circuitry to insure that all the cells remain within certain very narrow tolerances of one another. I believe what you read was more likely referring to a balancing circuit. Balancing is the process of forcing all of the cells to have identical voltages. At the same time, these battery packs have (or should have) a monitoring circuit that will shut the pack down if one or more cells begins fail, thereby exceeding it's upper or lower voltage tolerances.

All cells within the battery pack need to remain in balance with one another or bad things can happen.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_balancing

http://books.google.com/books?id=r_QfAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA111&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.electronicproducts.com/Power_Products/Batteries_and_Fuel_Cells/Achieving_cell_balancing_for_lithium-ion_batteries.aspx
 
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I can't imagine where you read something like that since such a practice would create a very dangerous situation...
If your battery is big enough that you can divide it into two or more banks and still have the required voltage and current ratings from each individual bank then it is perfectly safe to do so and switch between the banks as required, you still need cell balancing within each bank though. That has the advantage that if one bank dies you still have an operational battery, although with reduced capacity.
 
If your battery is big enough that you can divide it into two or more banks and still have the required voltage and current ratings from each individual bank then it is perfectly safe to do so and switch between the banks as required, you still need cell balancing within each bank though. That has the advantage that if one bank dies you still have an operational battery, although with reduced capacity.

But that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about the interaction between individual cells within a typical portable external power pack.
 
i am confused, this section is new to me. could this potentially be a solution to my battery issues if my car really is not able to handle my blackvue 650 AND 550?

i read you can daisy chain devices like the t-power. so while the car is running, does the camera run off the car battery? then when the car shuts off does it run off the t-power or is the t-power just for if the car bettery drops too low?

edit, although i just realized I need TWO sockets since im using two sperate camera systems.
 
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Xiao Mi 10400 Powerbank Pass Through Charging Feature
 
Just because some guy on YouTube says this device has pass-through charging doesn't make it so. In this case the reviewer says, "that a friend of mine says" that it has this feature. (along with a number of other odd remarks and unsubstantiated conclusions)
Interestingly, the author of the video provides the following comment with the video if you go watch the clip on YouTube. "Here's a useful undocumented feature of the Xiao Mi 10400 Powerbank, I say undocumented because the manual doesn't even mention about it at all! "

Then, on YouTube, the first viewer to comment on this video says, "This is wrong. It does not do pass-through charging. It connects the input current direct to the output, it doesn't charge the battery whilst it's outputting current. You can test this by measuring the input current versus the output current, it will always be the same (because it's directly connected)."

Even if this device could do pass-through charging it would not be a good idea. It would basically shorten the lifespan of the battery pack. This idea about "pass through charging" seems to keep coming up here and so I will re-post a paraphrased version of commentary I've made at least twice elsewhere in the battery forum.

"It is an unwise idea to charge and discharge a battery pack simultaneously. Devices you intend to run off the battery should be turned off while charging. This allows the battery to reach the threshold charge voltage unhindered and reflects the correct saturation current responsible for terminating the charge. A parasitic load confuses the charger throughout the entire charging process but especially when the voltage hovers near the charge termination point. Lithium-ion batteries are not designed to charge while they are being discharged and risk being damaged by attempting to do so. While certain brands such as Anker have claimed to have "pass-through" charging, this appears to be more of a marketing thing. Even on Anker's web site where they say their E4 battery can simultaneously charge and discharge, they go on to say, "However, constant pass-through charging may affect the battery’s lifespan." So, this is appears to be a disclaimer and an admission that they know this practice is not a good idea. Apparently, the more recent battery packs produced by Anker such as the E5 no longer claim to have pass-through charging."

The Internet is rife with misinformation from well intentioned but otherwise clueless people that gets picked up on by readers and viewers and re-posted over and over and over, leading people to believe things that just are not true. This video appears to be yet another example of this phenomenon. Critical thinking is an essential but often under-used tool for surfing the Internet!
 
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He has a follow up video which shows it doesn't work although in that video he still thinks it's working
 
Zendure state their A series is capable of passthrough charging. Here's what the A2 (6000 mAh) manual states:

Charge-through Function
In charge-through mode, the total maximum input is 2A. Depending on the output
current that's been drawn, Zendure will be charged at what's left. For instance, if
the output is 0.5A, Zendure will be charged at 1.5A; if the output is 1A, Zendure
will be charged at 1A; if the output is 1.5A, Zendure will be charged at 0.5A; but if
the total output exceeds 1.5A, Zendure will not be charged until the other devices
stop asking for additional power.
 
Zendure state their A series is capable of passthrough charging.

My understanding of all this is that, relatively speaking, you can fairly easily design the electronics of these types of battery packs to do pass-through charging but no matter what scheme you use it will put a lot of stress on the Li-ion cells and shorten their lifespan, perhaps by a third or more. So, a battery bank that should last 3 years will only last two, if that and it will hold less and less of a charge even sooner than that. Pass-through charging is obviously a much desired feature but for it to work properly really needs a different battery chemistry.
 
I don't think that's entirely correct, the battery chemistry should have nothing to do with it. A properly designed charging circuit, which it sounds like the Zendure could have, would do exactly what they described. The input power is passed through to the load and if the demand does not exceed the supply, then the remaining power is used by the charging IC. The load should not affect the charging circuit's ability to monitor the battery's state of charge because the two are not directly coupled. This is how the charging circuits in most cell phones have worked for years and they seem fine. My last smart phone was almost 3 years old and still had probably 75% of the original capacity, and it was topped off and left connected every night.

What lithium ions don't like are high operating temperatures and being over discharged or charged by a constant dumb circuit, like those cheap e-cigs, which just connect a 5V USB source to the battery and allow it to exceed the 4.2V design limit or have excessive charging current during the saturation charge stage. You might be able to get extended service life by keeping the maximum charge below 85%, but the loss of runtime is generally less desirable than just dealing with earlier replacement. At the typical prices of these packs, I think many consumers would be like me and opt for longer runtime and reserve capacity over replacing the unit a few months sooner.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

KuoH

My understanding of all this is that, relatively speaking, you can fairly easily design the electronics of these types of battery packs to do pass-through charging but no matter what scheme you use it will put a lot of stress on the Li-ion cells and shorten their lifespan, perhaps by a third or more. So, a battery bank that should last 3 years will only last two, if that and it will hold less and less of a charge even sooner than that. Pass-through charging is obviously a much desired feature but for it to work properly really needs a different battery chemistry.
 
I appreciate your thoughtful reply but I have to disagree with various aspects of your post.

While the issue of operating temperatures for lithium cells is indeed very important, this has nothing to do with the subject of "pass-through charging" so I'm not sure why you bring it into the discussion.

In any event, I have also previously referred and linked to the same article from Battery University you link to here and in fact, it is specifically one of the several sources that informed my understanding of why "pass-through charging" is not a viable method for lithium-ion batteries, as I will explain. So, I am wondering how carefully you read the article you are referring to. Perhaps you didn't read the whole thing?

I think when having a discussion like this we need to compare apples to apples. For this reason I do not believe that your example of charging a smart phone overnight is the same as constantly charging a phone while you are actively using it. Phones are not designed to be charged during use even if this will work for shorter periods. While the phone might reach a voltage cut-off at some point while using it, it will stress the battery. Similarly, and perhaps more closely related to external battery banks, I've often seen people develop problems with laptop computers that they leave plugged in all the time. The battery packs in these laptops overheat, suffer from shorter run-times, swell or fail prematurely. This laptop issue is specifically addressed in the Battery University article in regard to so called "pass-through charging".

"Some portable devices sit in a charge cradle in the on position. The current drawn through the device is called the parasitic load and can distort the charge cycle. Battery manufacturers advise against parasitic load while charging because it induces mini-cycles, but this cannot always be avoided; a laptop connected to the AC main is such a case. The battery is being charged to 4.20V/cell and then discharged by the device. The stress level on the battery is high because the cycles occur at the 4.20V/cell threshold."

I'm also not able to agree with your remark that, "battery chemistry should have nothing to do with it". I believe that battery chemistry has everything to do with it. Lithium-ion batteries have a positive electrode that is made of Lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2). The negative electrode is made of carbon. When the battery charges, ions of lithium move through the electrolyte from the positive electrode to the negative electrode and attach to the carbon. During discharge, the lithium ions move back to the LiCoO2 from the carbon. You simply can't effectively do both at the same time! This is likely the primary reason this battery chemistry doesn't tolerate "pass-through charging". Trying to force the cell to do both opposing cycles simultaneously just places the cells under extreme stress and will damage them. In addition, as explained in the linked article, unlike lead acid batteries (that will happily run with pass-through charging) lithium-ion cells do not accommodate trickle or float charging. Either it reaches the required voltage cut-off or it doesn't. If you are constantly hovering near that voltage point (above or below) you put a lot of stress on the cells as well as on the electronics attempting to provide the specific voltage.

As for the Zendure battery pass-through charging scheme, whether you raise or lower the amperage you are using to charge the battery bank you still end up charging the cells at the same time you are discharging them.

As I've mentioned, this specific BU article was one of the several sources I consulted before I posted my earlier remarks about why pass-through charging is not a good idea. In fact, in those remarks I paraphrased some of what is said in that article in reference to this subject.

Here is the exact quote from the article you linked from Battery University:

"A portable device must be turned off during charge. This allows the battery to reach the set threshold voltage unhindered, and enables terminating charge on low current. A parasitic load confuses the charger by depressing the battery voltage and preventing the current in the saturation stage to drop low. A battery may be fully charged, but the prevailing conditions prompt a continued charge. This causes undue battery stress and compromises safety."

People seem to want pass-through charging so they can run dash cams in parking mode using battery packs and not have to worry about keeping them charged. Personally, I believe the best practice would really be to hard-wire one's cameras into their car's 12V electrical system with an appropriate low voltage protection device. One of these days I plan to get off my butt and do just that, although it's beginning to look like that's not going to happen until winter is over. In the meantime, I often run 4 separate dash cams in my vehicle in parking mode using two low priced generic Chinese battery banks but I go to the trouble of bringing them inside and charging them properly overnight. So far, proper charging and discharging has given me excellent performance and longevity from these units.





I don't think that's entirely correct, the battery chemistry should have nothing to do with it. A properly designed charging circuit, which it sounds like the Zendure could have, would do exactly what they described. The input power is passed through to the load and if the demand does not exceed the supply, then the remaining power is used by the charging IC. The load should not affect the charging circuit's ability to monitor the battery's state of charge because the two are not directly coupled. This is how the charging circuits in most cell phones have worked for years and they seem fine. My last smart phone was almost 3 years old and still had probably 75% of the original capacity, and it was topped off and left connected every night.

What lithium ions don't like are high operating temperatures and being over discharged or charged by a constant dumb circuit, like those cheap e-cigs, which just connect a 5V USB source to the battery and allow it to exceed the 4.2V design limit or have excessive charging current during the saturation charge stage. You might be able to get extended service life by keeping the maximum charge below 85%, but the loss of runtime is generally less desirable than just dealing with earlier replacement. At the typical prices of these packs, I think many consumers would be like me and opt for longer runtime and reserve capacity over replacing the unit a few months sooner.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

KuoH
 
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Here is the specific point that I think is causing our mutual misunderstanding. Properly designed circuits do not charge and drain the batteries at the same time. A power bank connected to a 2A power source, but a 1A load will not be attempting to draw that load directly from the battery. The 1A load current will be drawn from the power source while the charging IC uses the remaining current to charge the battery if necessary. If the load uses all the available current, then no charging occurs. Again, it does not force the cell to do two things at once. The ones that cannot do pass through charging will have two separate curcuits, one to charge and one to discharge, which is why they cannot do both at the same time.

As for the example about laptop and other types of batteries failing prematurely due to being constantly being plugged into a charger while in use, as I said, many people are willing to trade longer runtime over a few extra months of battery life. I've worked in IT support for decades and know quite well the charging recommendations manufacturers have to publish versus real life results of hundreds of laptops used in corporate environments that are left plugged in 24/7. Overall, I'd agree it can degrade the usable life of the battery, especially with the older NiCd and NiMH types, but todays Li-ions and their associated chargers are much better at dealing with this type of use. In my personal and professional experience, I have yet to have a Li-ion laptop battery fail in less than 2 years from normal use, if it survived the first 60 days. These are laptops which are used daily for several 5 to 60 minute intervals between recharges and continue to be used while charging. Ofcourse regularly using the laptop in a hot environment, consistently letting it drain to less than 20% or leaving it unused but fully charged/discharged over many months will noticeably accelerate battery wear, but I would't consider that normal use.

While I agree that we are discussing power banks of unknown design, they are also quite inexpensive compared to a laptop battery. Am I going to care if I have to buy another $20-$40 power bank in 2 years by using it the way I want to versus pampering it and possibly only getting a few months or perhaps a year more? I'm going to say no, especially if it's one that I can replace with new cells anytime I want.

In the end, I understand you wanting to warn and educate the general public about the best way to prolong the life of their equipment, but the disadvantages of only using it in the "perfect" way should also be noted. FYI: My phones and laptops are always plugged into the car or home charger and used at will, regardless of the state of charge and I have yet to have to replace the original batteries in less than 2 years. However, I understand that my results are statistically insignificant and other brands and models may have different results. Still given that I can purchase a new battery for virtually any phone at around $20-$30, I choose to maximize it's availability by always keeping it charging whether I'm actively using it or not.

KuoH

You simply can't effectively do both at the same time! This is likely the primary reason this battery chemistry doesn't tolerate "pass-through charging". Trying to force the cell to do both opposing cycles simultaneously just places the cells under extreme stress and will damage them.
 
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